high gas prices are a good thing.

[zxtwou2]

here it is...i promissed i'd deliver. i'll leave this thread as an open discussion for why high gasoline costs are a good or bad thing. we tried discussing this in the chat, and i was bombarded by a few people at the same time on different issues, so this way we can address them civilly, and use quotes to respond without confusion.

i believe wholeheartedly that one of the best things for our country and environment is for gasoline prices to be higher. i'm not even ready to write this thread, because i want to just let out all the reasons all at once, so bear with me while i get a generalization out..then we can expand on that. right now, we send billions upon billions of dollars overseas to the middle east. foreign commodities will always be bought, but we have a dependance upon this one. we are the most oil dependant country in the world per capita. we need it to survive. a life without gasoline is scary to most Americans. they'd have to think of trading in the SUV for a smaller car. they couldn't just roam about the country without planning a big trip around the cost of travel. they'd actually have to cut back on their addiction to the convenience of a cheap fuel....but only for a little while.

while gasoline is expensive right now..it is still more cost effective than alternative fuel souces...like electricity made from things other than hydrocarbons, hydrogen, or other methods. the only way for americans to WANT to make the switch over to an alternative fuel souce...is if it were cost effective. while we all care about the environment to different degrees, it's not a big enough reason for us to want to spend more on better fuel. the only way to get this country to start weening itself off the dependancy of this foreign commodity is to make it so expensive, we look for other fuels.

other fuels can be made..domestically. this means we can sell the surplus we make overseas. this would regain some of the trillions of dollars we've lost by buying foreign oil all this time. this would be good for our economy on so many levels. if our economy was doing well when we were spending what was historically the least amount per gallon for fuel in the late 90's, imagine how well we'd be able to do by keeping countless billions of dollars within our boarders. making new fuels would not only open up new jobs, but it potentially opens up more high tech and skilled jobs, which pay better.

sorry if i'm breaking this up randomly, i just don't want to make one huge paragraph. i actually wrote a paper for a college class recently on this topic, so i can copy and paste that up if anyone wishes to see a more professionally done version of all this complete with references....but i'm trying to include more in this discussion...as i was limited to only a few topics on the college paper.

anyway...there are better fuels out there...we just have to make them and standardize to convert to them. gasoline is the only way most of us have to commute around. with much of this country living in rural or suburban environments, public transportation isn't always an option. taking responsibility on our own fuel consumption is feasable, however. we can chose to buy a more fuel efficient car...we can chose to ride a bike for small errands or entertainment....we can choose to carpool. the list goes on and on of how we can take charge of our energy consumption through petroleum products. who are we to be creative, though? it's much easier to drive that hulking SUV by yourself on a long commute to work and back...and to have everything brought to you via the wonders of that enormous television in the large house we always want.

our values and the american dream has changed. we expect to have a huge tv. we expect to have a huge house...but we can't get all these things if we have to spend so much on gasoline. we don't realize just how good we have it. of almost all other countries in the world, we pay just about the lowest price for gas. if you look at history...comparing products like a loaf of bread...gasoline has been waaaaay underpriced since about the 80's.

here's some reasoning to show you how inverse the cost of gas is. a loaf of bread in the 50's.....a loaf of bread in the 00's. it's easier and cheaper to make a loaf of bread now...but the price still has kept up with inflation. and we can always make more bread. now gasoline...the price has NOT gone up with inflation. it has stayed way below all other products...which is insane, because it is NOT a renewable resource. the price we pay for gasoline right now, is what inflation trends show we should be paying....if the product were just as readily available today as it was then. today, it's nont as readily available...because we are running out of supplies.

the only reason people are bitching about the price now, is because the price has shot up so drastically. it has gone up a dollar a gallon in just the last year! but if gasoline had followed the trend of inflation all these years, we wouldn't be complaining one bit.

so why are we complaining about having to spend more on gasoline...and sending more and more cash overseas? because it's what we've been setting ourselves up for, for the last few decades. i know there are a lot of college age kids out there that can't afford to go to school now because of transportation costs...or that there are farmers struggling to hang on because of the cost of operating their equipment. i agree that these people should have some sort of relief....but for the masses, the people who gasoline is almost a luxury, who have the choices to make about conserving...they need to pay. i'm one of the ones that can afford gasoline...because i drive a small economical car...i don't commute very far...and when i can, i carpool.

i also have a good job..but we'll try to keep personal income and such out of this, becuase nobody knows what bills i have..medical, etc. nobody can know things like that, so don't bring them up. i totally hear what the guys struggling to pay for gas to class with full time college going on have to say. i couldn't afford a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of until a year ago...making 21k/year with a family just wasnn't cutting it...so i don't want the sob stories..i have my own. i would like to hear ideas, though...on how we can resolve, adapt, and overcome the problem we have. remember...the problem isn't paying too much...it's paying for it at all when we have better options out there we can be looking into.

thanks all!

[zxtwou2]

i forgot to mention...with the hopes of making a better alternative fuel domestically...fuel prices will go down. example...right now alternative fuels aren't standardized and as mass produced...so they are expensive. if we would mass produce them and make the switch...we could mass produce them at a much lower cost. right now i spend about 10 cents a mile with gasoline...if we went to say, hydrogen that was made with solar electricity...maybe right now it costs 15 cents a mile...but later down the road it'd only cost us 5 cents a mile.

[mellowness65]

The thing about the environment is still speculation at it's best. Livestock produces more gases such as methane and co2 than all cars combined. There was a speaker that came to the university last semester from DC and spoke on global warming and said the predominant greenhouse gas is water vapor. While I'm not saying cars don't contribute to problems, it also must be acknowledged that cars alone are not a major causative agent to climate change. There has been periods of warming and cooling over millenia. The glaciers of NYC didn't go away because the wooly mammoths were rocking out in hummers too much, it's just something that occurs cyclically. And the whole assumption that oil is non-renewable has also not been proven. Eugene Island in the Gulf of Mexico is a well known example. Since drilling began, production capability has steadily risen. If we're running out, where's this extra coming from? The middle east has seen no major discoveries of oil in many years, and the supply from there has seemed pretty endless over the decades. I read an article on this not long ago, and it also mentioned in the early 20th century a government office was organized because people said oil was running out then, and that was something like eighty years ago. Based on the scientific truths on the issues concerned with oil, I think that the panic over oil and climate change is mostly a publicity stunt because all it's backed up with is assumptions, there are very few hard facts that agree with what's being said in the media

[JonsZX2SR]

Even if it were true (and I'm not sure that it is) that livestock produce more CO2 and methane than cars, the net increase in the atmosphere from livestock is zero, while internal combustion vehicles add CO2 or methane to the atmosphere unless they run on biofuels.

I thought I'd add that to your arguments for completeness and correctness.

The carbon emitted by livestock comes from organic matter which removed the carbon from the atmosphere as CO2. This results in a net balance of zero, or less than zero because some of the acrbon is put back into the soil. In contrast the carbon from petroleum has been locked up to millions of years. Burning fossil fuels has the net effect of increasing atmospheric carbn

Some carbon is put into the atmosphere by the burning of fossil fuels during the harvesting of hay or other efforts in the process of raising cattle, but the quantity is a small fraction and doesn't tip the carbon balance in favor of automobiles...

* * * * *
On a related note, Europeans are paying close to $9 per gallon of fuel. If the US relied on synthetic fuel made from coal and tar sands using a modified Fischer-Tropsch process (look it up) were could easily make fuel at this price, reduce $$ sent overseas and strengthen the dollar.

Unfortunately it would take years to build an infrastructure able to make synthetic fuel. we should have started on this in the '80's and didn't.

If people would commit to higher fuel costs as a means of breaking our dependency on foreign oil, and stop whining about high fuel costs, we could break the dependency in 10 years.

My guess is the average American doesn't have the will to bite the bullet and thumb their collective noses at foreign oil producing nations.

[zxtwou2]

If people would commit to higher fuel costs as a means of breaking our dependency on foreign oil, and stop whining about high fuel costs, we could break the dependency in 10 years.

My guess is the average american doesn't have the will to bite the bullet abd thumb their collective noses at foreign oil producing nations.

i do..and i'm hoping by spreading ideas of how we can break away from paying so much for foreign oil and start looking into domestic sources, people will see it this way. unfortunately, we are probably one of the most stubborn societies...and fear any kind of change that involves personal involvement.

like i said earlier...if we could go to hydrogen, produced by energy gathered from the sun...and standardize the american auto market to comply with that fuel...we can be paying less per mile for transportation within a decade. we just have to bite the bullet to ween ourselves off the oil supplying teet that is the hostile, if not volatile, middle east.

[JonsZX2SR]

While solar energy has its advantages at least two problems remain that are not going to be solved in the near future...

1) Cost of manufacture and low efficiency (low 10% range) of photovoltaic cells makes widescale use of photoelectric energy unfavorable with current technology. You also have the chemical waste from the photovoltaic cell manufacture which is not environmentally friendly. The more efficient GaAs photovoltaics are the least environmentally friendly from a mnaufacturing standpoint.

People are working on systems where the photovoltaic energy directly converts water to Hydrogen gas. This may eventually include genetically engineered photosynthetic bacteria to do the work for you and release hydrogen and oxygen instead of making carbohydrates.

The problem with this approach is you get an explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen that must be separated or combusted as fuel as you make it.

2) Hydrogen storage is not simple, especially for mobile vehicles. Either you store it in high pressure vessels or as metal hydrides. Both are expensive, potentially hazardous and store a fraction (10%-30%) of the energy as an equivalent volume of liquid hydrocarbon fuel. On a per weight basis, the comparison is even more unfavorable.

i've worked on thjis in the past and have friends working on hydrogen storage.

[capitalcrew]

Tim, while I agree with you that in the long run high gas prices are indeed a good thing, it doesn't change the fact that they are a bad thing right now.

Just recently, actually, NYS added taxes onto our off road diesel to make it the same price as on road diesel. They took AWAY the break we were getting, most likely to try and keep prices down on all of the on road fuels.

[gunman_sr5]

The more efficient GaAs photovoltaics are the least environmentally friendly from a manufacturing standpoint.

I second that. Considering that is one thing I do where I work. We are currently working on a newer GaP based version.

[PHeller]

I'll agree.

While I hate paying the price of gas, its also kind of like food.

Taco Bell is super cheap. It's also a delicious meal. I have to avoid it because I know its bad for me.

I like to eat salads, rice, vegetables, Asian foods without meat, and lean meats like chicken. They are more expensive, but they are better for me.

I've come to terms with the high gas prices. It sucks, it really does, but I'm already planning ahead. Thinking about a motorcycle, debating moving closer to school/work so I can ride my bicycle, trying to better understand the urban environment, I may even sell my late father's pristine 93 dodge truck with a great v8, and instead driving his junky Jeep with a Jasper engine that gets 20mpg. I'll probably only drive that once a week when I ride.

Our country really needs a wake up call. The Asian nations dominate with most efficient workforces, not only because they have debatable freedoms, but also because they are much tighter and well designed cities.

We Americans are obsessed with having fancy schmancy, show it off, "I've got the nicest" house, car, dog, woman, tv, etc, and when it comes to efficiency, that really hurts us. People don't want an apartment in the city, because they are worried that they won't have anywhere to park their Escalade, or won't have a cool backyard, or they might be associated with being poor and living in the ghetto. Yet in New York, downtown apartments are a sign of wealth and prosperity. Why? Because you don't have a choice! Once we can get past some of these misconception about urban and regional planning, and density housing, we can develop a more efficient society.

We need more short-track trains, work schedules that allow for less fuel consumption (4-10s instead of 5-8's), more understandable employers who will accept you if you missed the bus or the train. Just stupid things that our American culture has expected because we've always had personal transportation. Once we change some of these expectations, and developed a more efficient society, we'll be able to become less dependent on foriegn energy, and also a better workforce.

[JonsZX2SR]

By comparison with the rest of the world the US still has cheap fuel prices...

-> International price of gasoline (http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news/international/usgas_price/index.htm?postversion=2008050108)

Part of the problem with the US is a significant portion of our citizens are lazy, don't want to be challnged, won't make tough choices. The same problem manifets itself with poor financial decisions, credit cards, foolish borrowing and spending, a lack of desire for lifelong education, etc.

The rest of us work hard to try to make our country run, with little or no help from politicians (who are another national problem.) Fortunately there enough of us to make a difference who are hard working, who don't want to drive gas guzzling SUV's and want everything handed to us cheap and easy.

Ever wonder why some of us like small, sporty cars like the ZX2 ??

[PHeller]

Those hard choices are things like

- buying a smaller car to haul the kids around in
- living closer to work
- developing closer ties with our neighbors to promote better communities
- riding the bus/train to work
- spending more to re-use abandoned industrial sites
- renovating old mills, factories, etc into luxury apartments
- realizing we don't need a credit card because we really don't need to buying new clothes/tv/car parts every 3 weeks
- lists goes on and on

[JonsZX2SR]

Life isn't supposed to be easy. those of us to get organized and try to make good choices usually succeed (unfortunately sometimes successful decisions include when to lie, cheat steal and bribe the right person...)

Those expect life to be easy and who avoid decisions or hard work usually fail. Look at what is happeneing with all the foolish spenders and borrowers.

[mechtech]

A couple of guys in Texas are using natural enzmyes/bacteria to convert grown products to ethanol. This makes questionable ethanol production in this country more viable. 'Cause it sucks now.

[david gettle]

I'm shure the guys in Texas arn't the only ones thinking along those lines. Yeast, is one biologic that can do this kind of thing. Maby not as effeciantly as what those guys are doing, but it does still convert plant matter containing sugar to alcohol.

[SoCalZX2]

Those hard choices are things like

- buying a smaller car to haul the kids around in
- living closer to work
- developing closer ties with our neighbors to promote better communities
- riding the bus/train to work
- spending more to re-use abandoned industrial sites
- renovating old mills, factories, etc into luxury apartments
- realizing we don't need a credit card because we really don't need to buying new clothes/tv/car parts every 3 weeks
- lists goes on and on


Very nice ;)


Those expect life to be easy and who avoid decisions or hard work usually fail. Look at what is happeneing with all the foolish spenders and borrowers

Been sayin' that since the subprime mortgage collapse.

[RedRacer99]

this, my friend, is why i don't own a credit card. it'll just get me in trouble. and how i see it is, when you use a credit card, you're paying with money you don't have (even if you do, but then again, if you do have the money, use cash or a debit card). so you're buying with someone else's money. just seems careless...

[SoCalZX2]

this, my friend, is why i don't own a credit card. it'll just get me in trouble. and how i see it is, when you use a credit card, you're paying with money you don't have (even if you do, but then again, if you do have the money, use cash or a debit card). so you're buying with someone else's money. just seems careless...

There are proper ways to use a CC. I'm not one that would ever use one again, but technically, if you just park your money in a higher interest account and pay the card off every month, you're gaining interest on your money while still being able to buy the same items.

Now, with the CC but without proper setup (I.E. 3-6 months expenses in a money market account as an emergency fund) then it is VERY possible to hose yourself by spending the money earmarked for the CC payment or just flat out using the CC to pay for an emergency.

Not to mention all the slimy things that CC companies do to their members to get late fees and higher interest rates on balances. Like shifting due dates and making payment dates paid on Saturdays (autodrafted) not posting until the following Monday making it "late"...

Yes you can "responsibly" use a CC, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're far to anal about your finances.

[JonsZX2SR]

...and you can use debt wisely. When I did my house renovation I did some of the work, but I borrowed $35K out of a total $68K spent exoecting to pay about $6600 interest over 7 years. Total cost of the project, including interest, is $74.6K

However, borrowing the money allowed me to integrate roof and siding replacement of the existing house with demolition plus the new construction. Instead of doing things on a piecemeal, pay as you go schedule. This saved about $1500 in design drawings and approvals, $7500 in labor plus a savings of about $3500 in materials by buying in larger quantities and also missing subsequent price increases.

Had I done the project over 2+ years without the loan it would have cost an estimated $80.5K vs. the $74.6K over 7 months with the loan. In this case the loan and good planning saved me $5.9K and is an example of a wise use of credit.

[PHeller]

Jon, post up some pics of your place. I need something else I can idolize you for.

[RedRacer99]

i just don't want a credit card til i get a better job. is it possible to live normally without one? sorry that's a newb question... i know some dealerships require a cc but what about a house, apartment, etc etc... pros and cons please? i'm decently responsible with money so i'm not going to go apeshit and blow it all, but if it opens new doors and opportunities, then i'll consider one. help a bit

[JonsZX2SR]

My house is nothing special, just a 2100 SqFt 4 bedroom Colonial with a 2+ car garage and a big family room. It's been an ongoing project for over 10 years and still has stuff to do. On the other hand, in addition to the above it has a full unfinished basement workshop and the basement and garage have full power...

When the g/f and I sell both houses we'll probably get a medium sized house with a detached garage. he plan would be to add a workshop and full power to the detached garage.

To answer the other question, it is possible to have a credit card, carry cash and only use credit for big ticket items that you are already prepared to pay for it takes discipline.

The #1 credit disaster is a reasonably well off person who can get credit with a significant other who is an undisciplined spender. The 1st person enable the 2nd to get credit they shouldn't have, the 2nd person drives them into debt and unhappiness. (Ask a few of my relatives for details...)

[Loser47]

First off, let me say that (if you havent noticed) history repeats itself. If you know enough about history, you will see that. Now, about high gas prices, the last time the price of gas rose in the 70s(from .30 in 1965 to 1.10 in 1975), the house, senate, and president(Jimmy Carter) were all democrats. The high gas prices are nothing more than another fluctuation in the economy, with a little help from the democrat's gas taxes. Gas prices will go down in the future, after gas gets so expensive we actually do something about it(which, apparently, is more than $4 a gallon). So are the current gas prices good or bad? I say neither, it's just the way the economy is right now.

[FatTonyZx2ner]

One of my uncles favorite things to do is when buying a big ticket item, find a place that will do 0 interest for x months. He'll have the cash already saved for the purchase up front but instead rolls that into an account with interest or another moneymaking thing until the payments are set to begin on the big ticket item. He then pulls the money and pays it off and has some extra from the process