hate doing this...but from another forum

[zxtwou2]

propaganda goes both ways....so who do we believe. on one hand, everyone you ask hates bush, loves clinton, yadda yadda yadda... here's something (of which i dont know the validity of) i saw on another forum. the guy got this as an email...but it brings up some interesting things to LOOK INTO. i'm not posting this as fact...or as republican propaganda...just something we can pick apart. maybe some of you can offer proof some of these numbers are inflated..i'm sure they are. anyway..here goes:

Part 1

In just one year. Remember the election in 2006? Thought you might like to read the following:

A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 ye ar high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.

Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3.50 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in e quity value
evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.

America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
Remember, it's Congress that makes law not the President.
He has to work with what's handed to him.

Quote o f the Day........'My friends, we live in the greatest nation
in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try
to change it.' -- Barack Obama

Part 2:

Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find these
statistics enlightening and amazing.

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Taxes under Clinton Taxes under Bush 2008

Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500& ;nbs p;
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250
Both democratic candidates will return to the higher tax rates

It is amazing how many people tha t fal l into the categories above
think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest
President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they
will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that
fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is
like the movie, The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of
some money and they don't even know what happened.

PART 3:
You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much? Read this:
Boy, am I confused. I have been hammered with the propaganda
that it is the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us.
I now find that to be RIDICULOUS.
I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again
until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of
reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of all
the following facts.
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to
illegal aliens each year by state gover nments.

Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs
such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
verify at: http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary
school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../01/ldt.0.html
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for
the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for
Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are
caused by the illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's
two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular,
their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem
in the US.
Verify at: http://tran s cripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal
aliens that crossed our Southern Border; also, as many as 19,500
illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of
drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S
from the Southern border.
Verify at:
Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated t hat the total cost
of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an
average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year
period.'
Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.o...eportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances
back to their countries of origin.
Verify at:
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex
Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States.'
Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILL ION DOLLARS A YEAR.
Are we THAT stupid?

[00EscortZx2]

Nice. I'm moving to Alberta to live with the Grandparents haha.

[zxtwou2]

i might join ya if hillary beats obama. :beer:

[mechtech]

Thank you.
These are things the general new media will not acknowledge.
Remember... It is ALWAYS Bush's fault! Even things before he was born!

[powder]

I've read something similar to this somewhere else, can't remember where. It simply blows my mind that our government helps people who don't belong here. We have no reason to be humane to anyone who sneaked into the US! Here in WA there is a huge problem w/ this. The city that my parents live in is 65% (rounded down) illegal mexican immigrants. This angers me more than a lot of people because my wife is an immigrant and we did it right. For 6 months we waited and waited, and when they asked for more papers, we gave them more... then waited and waited again. We got her green card/visa because we did it right and stuck it out... these immigrants don't do that and it boils my blood when i think about it.

[PHeller]

It specifies the expenditures of other programs, but not does list how much we are spending on the Iraq War per day.

Democrats usually tend to tax more, but also tend to invest more in public programs that aim to help society.

It is very well possible that some of our problems stem from the Democratic Majority in Congress that are trying to make our President look bad by not passing any laws that make him look good.

There is nothing wrong with spending money on programs in the United States as long as those funds get recirculated. I'm very much against spending money on non-tax payers, whether it be Illigal Immigrants or people over seas.

[random_hero]

it boils my blood when i think about it.

Come to Upstate NY - farms hire illegal immigrants by the dozens. I asked a farmer why and he simply responded "Well, they're good workers and they arn't gonna get themselves into trouble just to get kicked out, are they? Cheap as hell, too."

[SoCalZX2]

It specifies the expenditures of other programs, but not does list how much we are spending on the Iraq War per day.

Democrats usually tend to tax more, but also tend to invest more in public programs that aim to help society.

It is very well possible that some of our problems stem from the Democratic Majority in Congress that are trying to make our President look bad by not passing any laws that make him look good.

There is nothing wrong with spending money on programs in the United States as long as those funds get recirculated. I'm very much against spending money on non-tax payers, whether it be Illigal Immigrants or people over seas.

Instead of bringing socialism to light in this country they need to invest more in getting the lazy population off it's ass. We don't need anymore messed up public help programs that can be exploited.

We sure as heck don't need any socialist style gov't run programs either.

[Blue ZX2]

Well SoCal. I agree with you but if you look closely at our system democracy is dying. Sure we vote, but it ends up being the electoral college who basicly has the say they simply "take the population vote in account." Does anyone stand up to anything hardly anymore? No they/we dont. In france a few years ago they wanted to raise college rates from like $20-$50 a year (which is nothing, my school alone went up 1000) and many towns shut down because everyone striked. When was the last time we saw a movement like that over a $50 increase?? When was the last time anyone really stood up to the Gov? The sad truth is our goverenement has slowly cut us off, and made us afrade to stand up for our own rights because we get punished for them. And most people dont want to risk, being in jail, or loosing their job. Everyone wants to just follow the line, keep quite, and do well for yourself and family and move on.

I dont like this. Heck I HATE it, but sadly it is the world we live in today, and our Gov. although still claims to be a demoracy it is more like a socialist country. They run everything, from oil to trades in goods. Take a look around do some research, they have this whole country by the reigns and are slowly pissing off every other fukkin country around us off and probably going to run us into the ground, unless some serious changes can be made. And the socialist countries you refer to are economicaly better off than we are, and most of the people over there are very happy and content with how things are, and they all pitty us.

[AZN_ZX2]

Ok no offense to people who posted above me but I didn't read it cuz my head hurts like a bitch. But if I see someone that needs help I don't stop and wonder if he or she is here legally or illegally. I don't really care because a person is a person right?

But for the government its different. They are trying to reduce illegal immigrants but allowing them to use our resources as well. They need to choose one or the other not both otherwise they won't end up getting very far.

[SoCalZX2]

I don't care how it "is" blue lol. Because thats not actually how it is. Yes the Gov't controls a lot of things, but I'll be damned if they get to control everything the way they see fit.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I highly doubt most socialist countries are financially better off then america... If thats true, it has NOTHING to do with how the Gov't runs things and has more to do with how stupid americans are with their money. The US is the largest economic force in the world, yet we have a negative savings rate... Why? Because the common person in america spends more then they make.

So everyones blaming the Gov't for this and for that and jumping on saying that socialist style programs are the way to go... HELL NO! Try saving some money and see how your financial outlook changes about the Gov't and socialist style programs that FORCE people into assisting.

When I GIVE my money to a cause or to a person in need, it should be MY CHOICE. Not the Gov't program taking another 15% out of my paycheck to help some "poor" family in the ghetto that isn't trying to better themselves at all.

[Buster]

All points I had brought up (on the now lost forum).

People do need to look at facts and also realize WHO is responsible for problems instead of just taking the easy road and blaming the President.

He's tried to get the oil reserves in Alaska and off the coast of Florida (and many others) drilled to lessen and eventually eliminate our dependency on foreign oil, but it has consistently been blocked by DEMOCRATS in Congress whose campaigns are funded by environmental groups such as the Sierra Club and Al Gore's organizations. Also, President Bush has been the one to present and sign many alternative fuel projects after the RIGHT route was blocked by selfish Congressmen.

The economy has been negatively affected by these moves in a big way. However if we think back just a year or two, our economy was booming because of his tax cuts and economic moves that kept interest rates at an alltime low. The stock market was hitting alltime highs. Unemployment was at an alltime low. This was all achieved by his policies and decisions and it overcame the negative economical effects of 09/11 and the recession left for him by the Clinton administration after the tech companies failed. Clinton did not do a bad job with the economy, he just didn't do anything to strengthen it and rode out the ".com" boom.

The welfare expenditures are ridiculous. They need cut dratically for additional strengthening of the military. Again, who has installed all of these social entitlement programs in the last 80 years? Yes, Democrats. They are often well-intentioned but they're doing a disservice to the nation as a whole economically and socially, as well as to the individuals who don't need to have any personal responsibility because of welfare programs. These traits are then passed onto their children.

I'll admit the President has been very disappointing on the immigration issue. It's my one real disagreement with him. He tends to side with those Democrats who constantly attack him on this issue. The border needs closed and the criminals who entered this country to "do jobs Americans won't do" (what a crock) need to be punished for breaking the law, not rewarded. I do not care if they are here for their families or to make a better life for themselves. That is honorable. However, making the first act upon entering the country being breaking of the law, that is not something they need to be rewarded for and it should not be tolerated. Get in line and wait for citizenship like the others who actually contribute and are proud to become Americans once they earn their citizenship. Those who steal their way into the nation are nothing more than leeches. They do not attempt to be part of the nation and often disrespect not only the laws, but us. English is the language of success in this nation. Learn it or leave.

[Team Havoc]

Quote o f the Day........'My friends, we live in the greatest nation
in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try
to change it.' -- Barack Obama

WHAT?:goofy::bounce:
wow thats why i dont vote for the major parties, cause they're all stupid.

[Buster]

^

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA...that quote is priceless. I want to make a t-shirt with it.

[SoCalZX2]

[QUOTE=PHeller;15887]It specifies the expenditures of other programs, but not does list how much we are spending on the Iraq War per day.
QUOTE]


From http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home
$4,681 per household.
$1,721 per person.
$341.4 million per day.

There you go... 515,608,700,150.00

So, in what, 5 years we've spent 515billion vs over 300billion a year. Yeah, the war is bad, but not as financially hosed as our internal policies in dealing with immigration.

[PHeller]

so maybe if we spent less time building fences and more time fining employers who hired illegals, we'd save money as well.

Problem is, they'll build a fence, hire border security, and completely ignore all the employers that would still be hiring illegals that hadn't been caught/found/legalized yet.

Fact is, the Iraq War is no more beneficial to the US than any of the welfare programs or immigration reforms.

[capitalcrew]

The electoral college votes based on the majority vote of the state they represent, and they have never done anything other than that. That is a terrible argument.

Thank you Buster. It makes me sick how quickly people jump to accuse the President of causing everything they don't like. Congress makes the laws, the president just approves them. Any one who doesn't like what is going on in this country needs to either work to change it the right way, and research things before they try to be politically active.. or leave. I am sick of listening to people complain about the president, he can only approve or veto what he's presented with.

People are afraid of the government because people are afraid of everything. The government can do nothing about a protest, as long as it stays peaceful. People are just lazy, people are pathetic. Don't blame our populations lack of motivation on the government, blame it on the population.

That brings me to immigration. The jobs that illegals are doing could be taken by thousands of Americans, who are unemployed. They are just LAZY. I can think of two people right now who are ruining the lives of their children simply because they are too lazy to go and get a job. They are sucking the systems tit, along with millions of other people in this country. People are pathetic.

Border security needs to greatly be increased. I am all for immigration to this country, I am all for new people with new ideas.. I love it when productive people come here. It pisses me off though, that after all of the work that some people do (I.E. Powder's wife) there are people who sneak across a border and then find ways to live off of nothing. Why is that allowed to happen? It is pathetic. Border security needs to be heightened, partly because we need to stop letting detrimental people come to America.. and partly because it is a massive national security risk.

As for all of the illegals here.. The ones in prison should be sent back to wherever the hell the came from and put in prison there. The illegals we catch, also need to be sent back. Their children.. either put up for adoption or they need to be emancipated and live their own life.

[SoCalZX2]

so maybe if we spent less time building fences and more time fining employers who hired illegals, we'd save money as well.

Problem is, they'll build a fence, hire border security, and completely ignore all the employers that would still be hiring illegals that hadn't been caught/found/legalized yet.

Fact is, the Iraq War is no more beneficial to the US than any of the welfare programs or immigration reforms.

Who was trying to argue that it was? lol

No one was trying to argue that the war was more beneficial to our country then tougher imigration laws... I think we were just trying to put into context the problem with the media.. is that most people (you too apparently) buy into what is the real financial drain on this country... Everyone thinks it's Iraq. While 515Billion is a lot of money, it's less then 1/3 the cost of keeping illegals here.

I agree though, they need tougher policies for those who won't follow the law and they need to get the illegals out of here.

[SoCalZX2]

People are afraid of the government because people are afraid of everything. The government can do nothing about a protest, as long as it stays peaceful. People are just lazy, people are pathetic. Don't blame our populations lack of motivation on the government, blame it on the population.

At least I'm not the only one who sees the real problem with America lol.

[peter-vz]

Send all the illegals to their country including Europeans, Asians, Indians, and all other people who are not native Indians and leave America to the right owners. Thats what people should do if they don't want illegals in America.
jajajaja

[capitalcrew]

Who was trying to argue that it was? lol

No one was trying to argue that the war was more beneficial to our country then tougher imigration laws... I think we were just trying to put into context the problem with the media.. is that most people (you too apparently) buy into what is the real financial drain on this country... Everyone thinks it's Iraq. While 515Billion is a lot of money, it's less then 1/3 the cost of keeping illegals here.

I agree though, they need tougher policies for those who won't follow the law and they need to get the illegals out of here.

Things are being done. All across the south companies are being forced to stop hiring illegals. They lose their business license and get heavy fines if they are caught.. the bad part is all of the illegals are migrating north. Like a flock of freakin birds.

I'm right there with you Socal. Any one who complains about not having work, shut up and work on a farm. A farm is ALWAYS hiring some one. We are always looking for more people to work. We have no illegals working for us either. We are always hiring, so stop complaining about not having a job people.

[zxtwou2]

^but that's hard work...the american dream says nothing about working dirty jobs to get that plasma screen and SUV.

[SoCalZX2]

^but that's hard work...the american dream says nothing about working dirty jobs to get that plasma screen and SUV.

It used to :p

[ImCrazy]

fuck politics.

[CraZx2ing]

want to know the best part about immigration? those of us that are doing things the right way, legally, just saw a 40-60% rate hike in july. The reward for people immigrating legally? Before july ~$400 to file for a green card... after july ~$1050.

How cool is that?

[zxtwou2]

funny how laws like that don't get a lot of publicity...you know, the ones started, passed, etc by congress....

[PHeller]

I hate to say it, but I think the 515 Million in Iraq could be going to Mexico to help them build a more stable and profitable economy.

Yes, it sucks sending jobs to Mexico, but the quicker we do, the more they'll want to stay in their own damn nation. This would also make Mexico into a stronger consumer entity, which in turn would boost the American economy.

Most immigrants come to the US because

1) Family
2) Better working conditions
3) Better living conditions

Most immigrants could care less what they make in America, because they can live on the street and still live a better life than in their native country.

[SoCalZX2]

You obviously know nothing of Mexico lol. 515b will end up in the rich peoples hands there. The country is very corrupt... and it's not our business to go there (like Iraq so don't bring that up).

515 Billion would be better spend on funding things for our country... not some other country.

[PHeller]

I would agree, but I'm just saying, part of the problem with Mexico, and the reason we have so many immigrants from Spanish speaking countries is because their economies, living conditions, and other systems are not nearly as good as our.

It's a bit upsetting though that rather than trying to fix a country through revolution, education, or politcal activism, many foriegners have just given up, and get on the boat, truck, or hop the border to the U.S.

I'm not saying in just dumping money into Mexico, but providing jobs, and stimulating there economy, in sectors that would benefit both nations would be benefit to North America. Look at how well Peurto Rico has done, but it provides little in the economic benefit to the U.S. because its so small.

Immigration reform is not as simple as just building a fence or throwing illegals on a bus.

[SoCalZX2]

I would agree, but I'm just saying, part of the problem with Mexico, and the reason we have so many immigrants from Spanish speaking countries is because their economies, living conditions, and other systems are not nearly as good as our.

It's a bit upsetting though that rather than trying to fix a country through revolution, education, or politcal activism, many foriegners have just given up, and get on the boat, truck, or hop the border to the U.S.

I'm not saying in just dumping money into Mexico, but providing jobs, and stimulating there economy, in sectors that would benefit both nations would be benefit to North America. Look at how well Peurto Rico has done, but it provides little in the economic benefit to the U.S. because its so small.

Immigration reform is not as simple as just building a fence or throwing illegals on a bus.

But its a damn good start :p

I get what you're saying. I really do, but 515 billion would be a waste on that country. We really need to invest that kind of money into our own country to make things better before we go fixing other countries economic problems.

Once we can get our own stuff straight, then I'm ALL for helping other countries live better and make better livings for themselves. We have too many problems outselves because of the lack of fiscal responsibility for ANY gov't.

[Buster]

You obviously know nothing of Mexico lol. 515b will end up in the rich peoples hands there. The country is very corrupt... and it's not our business to go there (like Iraq so don't bring that up).

515 Billion would be better spend on funding things for our country... not some other country.


I was just about to comment on that ridiculous idea. Mexicans are poor and break into our nation because the government starves them. The Government is horribly corrupt and wants their people to be poor so that they'll want to come here and take the more valuable American dollars back to them.

I'm also concinved that the Mexican government is being run by drug cartels.


Like it or not, Iraq is a necessary battle and is a big part of our nation's future security. If you do a little research beyond what the news and their broken record plays, you'll see that we have been VERY successful in Iraq and have made our nation much safer by being there.

[PHeller]

decided not to go off topic.

The Mexican government is largely ran by drug cartels. Drugs that ruin thousands of lives a year, directly or indirectly.

Mexico is also right next door to us.

Did we invade Mexico? Hell no. Did we try to save Mexicans from their corrupt government? Nope. We'll solve there problems after we go after terrorists like bin Laden, oh wait, no, terrorists like Sadam, ya, he attacked us! Next up its Iran, we've gotta help those people too, they've got the best nation in the mid-east, but they're evil! Then we'll go to Palistine and help out Israel, and while we're at it we might as well liberate Syria.

Mexico can wait, they'll just all move into America!

The Bush administration could have cared less about bettering Mexico, instead it was more interested in getting a foothold in a region half-way across the world.

Now Iraqis are flooding into Europe, filling up jobs in those countries. Sweden is sending Iraqi's back to Iraq because they have too many.

Meanwhile, Mexicans just run right into the U.S.

[peter-vz]

We the people will never be satisfied whit the government movements, half of all the American people want Mexicans out of the country? or all illegals out of the country, including Europeans, Asians, Indians, and all other people who came illegally? I don't think so. I've seen people go pay their stuff or something at the store and many need help because they can't speak English and they don't ask me for help, why? Because I look white or I may be white and they think i don't speak Spanish or their language so i go to them and help them out, I'm like wtf, i could be illegal but because i look white or I'm white they don't say shi t to me. wtf ''racism''
Even the people from Europe invaded the American continent so they could live better, and killed The Indians and many more things that are not in books.
This country has become a nation under government.

When i see the news in English is something but in Spanish a lot of info not put in English channels. government have to control what you think about them, pay more attention when you see stuff on sale and when you watch news, in other words pay more attention to every single thing you see. We are under control.