Cusco BG Rear Camber Plates

[STS-ZX2SR]

I already have the matching fronts...they work nicely. need more negative camber in back to settle things down.

http://www.imazda.com/mazdaracer/V6/cuscoR_1.jpg
http://www.imazda.com/mazdaracer/V6/cuscoR_3.jpg

Any reason that these won't work on a ZX2?

[TTFOWIA]

you know they wont work and you want reasons or is that a question?

[STS-ZX2SR]

No...I simply want to know if they will work.

[BernardZX2]

The space in which the rear mount bolts up is very small. I got some custom mounts second hand. I had to cut some of the metal out (make the center whole bigger) to make room to adjust the camber setting.

The adjusting plate on that one looks way too big. Without some measurements it's impossible to tell what about it will not work.

[STS-ZX2SR]

The ones in the photo are for a BG Protege...I dont know what kind of space they ahev to work with compared to the ZX2.

[iceracer]

I don't see why you need more camber on the rear. I run the stock 1.5* and it works fine. If your rear is too loose for your liking, try less sway bar or softer springs and play with air pressure. How is the toe ?

[STS-ZX2SR]

I don't see why you need more camber on the rear. I run the stock 1.5* and it works fine. If your rear is too loose for your liking, try less sway bar or softer springs and play with air pressure. How is the toe ?

Aren't you on R-comps? We have played with pressure...dont think its wise to go any lower. I could get a smaller RSB out of a yard, but I dont really want to upset the front by messing with the rear...so that is down on the list of solutions. The toe is 0, some toe in would help. Our springs are really not that stiff at 370. We may add some spring in front as well--around 500...get a bit more front bias...but agin I like how the front feels, but the photos do show some more roll than I'd of expected. My camber is 1; yours is 1.5...I'd take 1.5 now, but would prefer closer to 2. The fast SpecCivics run between 2 and 3 in the back.

We have had a local (SCCA/Vintage) race shop doing most of the work for us...time is a premium, so I have admittedly spent very little time actually wrenching on the car. All I did was put the seat in...nothing underneath.

[iceracer]

You would be surprised at the amount of camber you can get by the "loosen ,push/pull method". I can get .5 * just by loosening the lower strut mount bolts and prying the support. Which brings up another possibility. slot the hole.
Yes, I usually run R comps but I have run my Kumho SPT's with no change in handling except less grip.
Honda's have a different suspension so you can't go by what they do and a lot of that is,"Everybody does it."
Just exactly what does the car do that you feel you need more camber ?
Another thought I had. Try changing the rake of the car.

[STS-ZX2SR]

The car is extremely loose on moderate to high speed sweepers and switchbacks/slaloms.

Hondas (at least the SpecCivics) do have a different suspension--certainly makes comparing spring rates petty useless. But on a (moderate to stiffly sprung) FWD autocross car, camber is camber...and I am simply looking at what the successful cars have gone with; if you research some other fast Mazda Protege and EGTs...they are all in the -2*+ neighborhood as well.

Thanks for the other (loosen/pry) suggestion...I'll look into that. We do have to corner weight the car yet...no idea how it is right now.

[iceracer]

That is odd,( Loose on sweepers and slaloms). The only time mine gets loose is when I back off the throttle and is easy to catch by adding throttle.
Not to critisize your driving, try moderating the throttle in those conditions. I find in those conditions I add just enough throttle to maintain my speed without pushing.
Remeber the old addage, " slow in, fast out". Maybe you are tying too hard untill you find out what the car likes.

[iceracer]

I think your suspension needs a thorough going over. Are the springs actually the rate specified. How are the shocks? Are they compatable with the spring rates? Are ther any worn or loose bushings?
Shocks have a lot to do with lean, especially in a slalom.
Front springs should be app. 60% stiffer than the rear and then the roll couple balanced out with anti-roll bars.
Too stiff a spring will make the car skittery on a rough surface.

My SR suspension is basically the way it came only with a 22mm adjustable rear bar. My point being, I have very little lean and has been commented on by other drivers.

[Benswen]

I believe AWR has a set of rear adjustable strut mounts for the 99-2003 Protege, which should fit the BG platform cars as well.

[STS-ZX2SR]

The springs are Eibach/GCs...I have not dynoed them. The dampers are custom-(re)valved Koni inserts that started as "Reds" and were converted to "Yellows"...this was done in late 2005. The car ran a season around Seattle in 2006 and was parked in 2007. I got it 12/07. We took it "as-delivered", added a racing driver seat, the front camber plates (took out the crash bolts), poly front LCA bushings and a lower front tie bar...and our wheels and tires.

I appreciate the "non-criticism" on the driving...I've been autocrossing since 1988. I am an instructor in two clubs, have had an SCCA Regional racing license. While I am not at all saying my driving is infallable, I do have a co-driver with this car, who while somewhat new to autocrossing has a bit of circle track experience, and his experiences with the ZX2 are similar.

In 2004-2005 I drove a very moderately prepped Focus in STS. It was on only 6.5" wheels, no coilovers etc. ...still did OK in it: http://www.tsscc.org/2005/images/event5_fin.htm . I also posted the fastest street-tire time at the Ford Focus "Jetfest" in 2005--and was 4th overall. I can certainly adjust my driving--and have done so a lot in the two events thus far. ...but when my co-driver and I are both feeling the same thing...Not to sound conceded, but I am pretty sure it's not me, or us for that matter.

The ZX2 is clearly much faster, much stiffer and much more nimble due to almost 500 less pounds in weight...and much more prone to rotate. Now we are running the staggered wheel/tire setup...and maybe this was too extreme for 'out of the box'...but we were unsure about the wide-running Z1 215/40-17s fitting in back. They will fit, but one side will need a minor fender roll. I have researced some other successful BG drivers, and nearly all have had rear plates.

If the front springs should be 60% stiffer than the rear (where is this sourced from??? Curious...), then we are way too soft in front. The rears are 370, fronts are 450...and should be closer to 600. That would presently give us way too much rear bias...and certainly make us loose. The photos still show a bit more roll than I'd like to see...so a stiffer front rate could go a long way to reducing this. I think the person that we got the car from figured that the front should only be about 20% stiffer...which is what we have, and is a lighter version of what Will Kallman ran (600/500) on his uber-fast STS EGT.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8db29b3127ccea832edd2653000000016100QbMmTJo4bse
Me...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8db29b3127ccea832e5c2652400000016100QbMmTJo4bse
Me...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8db28b3127ccea8382a0cfc0b00000016100QbMmTJo4bse
Craig, my co-driver...

The goal of this project is to make a ZX2 that is capable of winning a STS trophy at Nationals. We likely have the fastest, deepest STS field in the country in Milwaukee. There are 3, if not 4 SpecCivics that have won, or are are capable of winning a trophy--including last year's Champion. If we can make the ZX2 show well here...it'll show well anywhere.

I truly appreciate all of the input, thoughts and suggestions...

...is there any reason to think thses plates wont fit?

[Benswen]

Hey Eric - I sent you a PM at www.mnautox.com. I saw your posts there about your ZX2, and I have been thinking about running a ZX2 in STS.

Couple questions:

Is there any real advantage to starting with an S/R model? It's tough to find one around here, and since it will do double duty as my daily driver, it can't be yellow. From what I can tell, all of the changes to the S/R model could be fairly easily replicated with a 00-01 base model, other than the ECU.

How are the gear ratios? Do you find yourself boucing off the top of second gear a lot?

Is 2250 a realistic weigh goal?

How are the Star Specs? That 215/40 size looks awesome, but I'm considering going with the 215/45/16 Azenis to start with. Supposedly the new Toyo R1R is going to be available in 225/45/15, but that might mess with the gears too much.

As far as rotation goes, Whiteline has an Extra Heavy Duty rear anti-sway bar for the 91-94 323 that is 24mm thick. That should do the trick.

[STS-ZX2SR]

No...Base would be fine, maybe even preferred. You really only gain the rear discs and the Centerforce clutch in the end; I believe that you can use the S/R PCM on a base car.

I have yet to see the rev limiter while 'in action'.

2250 could be, especially in a base car where you can pull off the AC. I cant after this year (so I wont), because all S/Rs had AC.

I dont have the Star Specs--they are the 'old' Z1s. I like them very much, regardless. I think Pat W and Darryl W have them, however.

My car rotates too much as is....the Whiteline would make it 'more worser' :-)

[iceracer]

That 60% is just something I came up with in comparing the rates of the Eibachs on the SR and the way my car handles.
I tried that different tire size years ago. Didn't work.
I bow to your driving experience, I was just giving some thoughts to the way I have learned to drive a fwd car and passing them on. They may be helpfull to any one else reading this thread.
Since I have just about exhausted my thoughts on this subject, I will bow out.
Sincerely hope you reach your goal.

[STS-ZX2SR]

No reason to bow out, Ice...we can all learn from each other here. No reason to bow to me either...You dont know me from a hole in the wall...and I only wanted to clarify that I have been racing longer than some people on this borard have been alive. Too often on (autocross) message boards, when someone posts a concern, the canned answer is to 'adjust the nut behind the wheel'...and for many of those cases, it is an appropriate answer. I simply don't think so in this case. I do, however, have enough experience to jump into a car and pick up on an unwanted tendency fairly quickly...and in a class like STS there is enough flrxibility in the rules to make a correction.

I have done and continue to do a ton of research on the BG chassis--trying to find what works, and trying to avoid what does not. The ZX2 has always struck me as a car that is full of potential...and I have to rely on information from guys like you who have an established background.

Still looking for the answer...do the plates pictured look to be correct (is there anything different with the rear strut mounts of the ZX2 relative to the Protege/323/EGT etc.)?

[Benswen]

Not sure about the camber plates, but my guess is that they would work.

As for spring rates, most of the FSP setups I've seen for BG-platform cars have the rates in the 600/front and 500/rear area. With a huge rear sway bar, and no front bar, I would think that having less of a split between the front and rear would be the way to go, especially if you lose a little weight under the hood.

[STS-ZX2SR]

Will Kalman had 600/500 in his STS EGT, with big bars at both ends. I believe that you are correct about Justin and Jason's Proteges (both FSP).

The 600/500 is a ratio of 1.2; the springs I have are also a 1.2.

[iceracer]

That ratio would loosen the car up.

[STS-ZX2SR]

That ratio would loosen the car up.

LOL...that't kind of the point of this whole thread. Toooooo loooooooose.:smile:


The pictured camber plates will take about 8 weeks. I have one other option to look into. For now...we're going to look at camber bolts and pulling the struts in as much as possible...see what that gives us.

Craig and I talked about this too... I think we're going to look at some 500-550s for the front--that'll put us in the 1.35-1.48 range ( Here is the goods on another fast BG w/ 500/325 rates-- http://www.imazda.com/mazdaracer/Protege.html ). I'm more inclined to try the 550s--we have a pretty smooth, moderate grip lot...that is very similar to Topeka (Nationals) also. That should take some of remaining lean out of the car, and keep the tires a little more happy. We'll also get some more weight loss going here--I think we can take 50 pounds out without too much struggle...and that should put us in the upper 2200's.

[iceracer]

I still say, your too loose problem starts with the tire set up you have. Too much difference in slip angles.

[STS-ZX2SR]

You may be right. ...but I have seen staggered setups on National Champion cars.