Union's out dated?

[McG35]

I grew up in a union town and personally I think that unions are severely out dated.

[SoCalZX2]

I don't think they are out dated, but they have become a way for lazy people to stay employed and get paid way more then they are worth.

[jdrzx2]

Out dated and over rated.

[ZetecInside]

It's not that Unions are outdated, its just that certain unions have become too powerful for their own (and others') good.

It's the inevitable problem with any organization that attains broad power - their power will always be used to benefit their own members, usually at the expense of everyone else.

In the case of unions, they were founded to correct serious pay deficiencies, prevent employer abuses, protect worker safety, and provide job training. As unions grew, they acquired more money, more political influence, and in many cases became the decision-makers in industry, rather than their employers (due to their dominance of the labor market).

Some unions used their labor leverage to force expensive labor contracts onto employers, which made them unable to weather the effects of recession and inflation (see: the airline industry)

Others unions did the same thing, but their employers were able to outsource much of their production into cheaper labor markets (see: United Auto Workers)

Some union use their legally-binding powers of professional licensure to restrict the entry of new workers into their field, preventing competition and inflating prices (see: The American Medical Association).

All of these tactics benefit the workers, but they usually hurt consumers, taxpayers, and shareholders.

Capitalism is all about free association, so there is no reason why Unions should be restricted from forming. But they shouldn't be able to use lobbying power to attain unfair government protection either. The auto workers are facing layoffs because of decades of poor, shortsided union leadership that used their power to demand exorbitant salaries without considering the long-term ramifications. No one likes to take a pay cut, but the UAW today simply can't accept the fact that they are making more money than they are worth, and more money than the market can handle. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have no choice but to lay people off and outsource overseas if they want to even survive. Everyone likes to paint "Corporate America" (a meaningless term, BTW) as the greedy bad guy. The reality is a lot more complicated.

[powder]

That's funny you say airline industry cuz i'm in it and can tell you that outsourcing has destroyed deadlines. The US built planes are the ones that make it off the line on time... not the globally built ones.

In my shop, we have a 98% blow through... meaning, 98% of the parts we make are done right the first time. The numbers for overseas vendors are in the 30% blow through range.

Why people think that the people who make this happen don't deserve what they get paid, is beyond me.

BTW, the company i work for has increased their profits by 828% over the last 5 years. They can pay us what we make and more. W/o us that wouldn't happen.

Do i believe some unions are corrupt? Yes. I believe that a lot of union members abuse the freedom and relaxation of their environment. However, i do not believe getting rid of unions is the solution to this. I do however believe that sometimes it takes a revolution of the members to elect new officials and business reps to keep them in line. Sort of a "do your job or you will be replaced" type of deal. This is happening right now in my union which is why i was singing a different tune a few months ago. It is a union official's job to make sure that each of us are doing ours.

[McG35]

I agree with what Powder said. The union town I grew up around was GM's SUV plant. The people that worked there are by far the bottom of the barely white trash people I have ever seen and because they can put block A into slot A they think they are tough shit. If I was in a union such as the one I just stated I would believe my work habits would be much like the ones I have in the Military. I work to make time go by, not to get the job done quickly (Iraq is a different situation obviously).

I got a touch off subject but look at what GM is doing to more and more of it's cars made, they are getting sent out of the US to be made, why? because UAW can't piss GM off there.

My 2 cents again...

[ed-flip]

i am a non union electrician till i die. im sorry but as stated before the union is for lazy people, that make WAY to much money. the only cool thing about the union is that they pay for schooling which is a lot of damn money.

[aaronrun]

Most union jobs (that I'm aware of) are not overly paid. Any company that is gonna cry about how the worker's are putting them out of business, and then goes out the same year and raises their CEO pay to 50 million a year..... f***ing byte me!!! LOL. Double standards FTW! They count on people's distorted perception of what "great pay" is. If a f***ed up company is meant to go out of business, that is exactly what was meant to happen and what they deserved.

[mechtech]

The biggest and most powerful union in this country is the TEACHER'S union.
Work 9 months a year, get all sorts of days off with pay, and a pension.
All this just for babysitting [basically]. All the teaching [grade school] involved could be done in a MUCH shorter time than a normal school year. I have read that by 6th grade, you could get the same results as going to school normally, and never setting foot in a school until you were 12, and learn everything in 6 months. At a certain level of maturation, you will pick up and learn MUCH faster.

I'm not so sure trade unions have a majority of lazy people. For the most part, you work grueling hours and bust your ass. Most guys have various physical problems long before their careers are over, from the work.
Many benefits and better conditions for non union workers were obtained by union's efforts, and they 'spilled over'. We could always go back to 7 day work weeks and 10-12 hour days, I suppose.


Unions are loved by the Democratic party - so far, a huge almost automatic support system for them.

There are excesses in union rules. You don't really need 2 electricians at 3 hours overtime apiece to plug in a light fixture [legally] at a trade show in Chicago.
But without any type of unions, a very select few would have everything, and almost total control over a huge number of people.

[JohnP]

Any of you people ever work in a automotive plant , manufacturing or assembly ? The majority of people on the outside are clueless , have no idea of how they function . The majority of those people bust their ass everyday . There are some jobs that are totally overpaid and questionable , but the union says we need them .

All of the functions are set by a production standard . In machining so many parts in so many minutes , so many at the end of the shift and they best be in spec . Parts are checked every so many pieces ran. You have set-up time , tool changes , breakdowns and have to run so many parts , then clean it up at the end of the shift . Hot in the summer 100+ , oil fumes everywhere , freeze in the winter .

If your on a assembly line , can be small parts , big parts , sub-assemblies or at the vehicle assembly plants . You have a station you stand/seat at for your shift , doing the same thing over and over and over again .You have breaks in the morning , lunch , break in the afternoon , the line keeps running . Hot in the summer , cold in the winter .

The union is a necessary evil , without it you have low wages , poor working conditions and little if any medical . The UAW has fought to keep jobs in the U.S. . The manufactures have sent the jobs to Mexico , pay a few dollars an hour , no benefits . Now thats not good enough , most of the big three have plants going up all over Asia and India , so now they pay even less then they did in Mexico .

The Japanese plants in the U.S. under the UAW have been fighting to keep what little they have in plants and benefits . The manufactures have came up with a little game in the non-union plants of hiring Temporary people . They pay half the wages of the full time people , but no benefits . If a full time person is out on sick leave , they get replaced by a temp. , you may or may not have a job when you come back . The original people that started in the plants in the beginning at half the UAW wages , have had their wages and benefits cut . More and more of the parts are coming from Japan , so thats more jobs lost here .

Look for Ford to bankrupt North American Operations and start to import cars made at their new plants in China and India . You pay the same price , but they pay slave wages to their people and no benefits . Our family has been in the automotive industry since 1911 at Highland Park to Indianapolis in 1991 . I have heard so much BS from people that have no clue about the industry except the BS they read in the papers and hear on TV . Go work in the plants , make good money , see how easy it is , ah sorry the last ones are closing , you'll have to go to China .

[ZX2guy19]

John, tell us how you really feel.

;]

[Gunslinger]

thats why i dont buy imports. i wont support commey bastards that come here and treat hard work people like garbage. same goes for some american auto industry to. they can go fuck themselves

[mechtech]

I was a member of United Auto Workers when I worked for GM.
I worked at Electro Motive, and built diesel train engines.
I heard the horror stories about conditions before the union was allowed in.

I have also worked at a plastic blow molding factory [bottles].
12 hours every other day, and a day off every 21 days. 1/2 hour non paid lunch. As much crap as they could legally get away with
No union there.

There are many greedy union abuses, and various Jimmy Hoffa stuff going on, but trust me, UNIONS set the standard for a decent life in this country.

[Sir William]

I am both an Auto Worker and a Union Rep in the Canadian Auto Workers Union.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there are not lazy people that work at the ford plant because there are. I'm not going to tell you that I don't have to defend them with every bit of effort that I fight for a hard worker, because I do and am obligated under LAW to do so. If I do not represent the "Lazy" worker the government likes nothing better than to take it to the courtroom and cost the local thousands of dollars. I am like a lawyer, you pay union dues, I defend you under the Collective Agreement.... PERIOD!!!

Now movin on.... JohnP is exactly right with everything he has said.

People say every day, We don't need unions..... for some reason they think that big business has a conscience, they think that without unions corporations like Ford, GM, Chrysler, and yes even Toyota would pay good wages…. For you I say wake up and smell the coffee…. Or better yet take a trip to any of the maquiladora zones that large corporations have set up. In these area there are lax environmental laws… there are almost no protectionary laws for the workers and they are paid in a week what someone in the Southern Right to Work States make in a week…. Even with that, large corporations have told Mexican workers in the maquiladora’s that they are overpaid and have since started production in areas such as china and India where the going rate (in India) is aprox sixty cents an hour. These are the same companies that employ you and would pay you a decent wage without a Union.

Now, I’m sure some of you are saying… yeah but I don’t work in a Union shop….. Hmmmm think about it.. and where do you think minimum wage comes from!! Not from the conscience of corporations, it came from Unions fighting with governments for better living standards for everyone! Vacation days… hmmm, yep, Union too. Do you make a good wage doing a job that isn’t Unionized….. take a look around, bets are on that there is a Union shop somewhere in the USA making a similar product and paying their workers a similar wage because of a Collective Agreement!! Yep, every time they get a raise you do too…. You think the company does that because they care about you!!!

I work for Ford as I stated earlier, my big boss from the past Jack Nassar screwed up royaly… what did he get…. Hmmm lets see…. Oh yeah 89 million dollars…. But in the next breath Ford tells me that we can’t possibly ask for a raise in our collective agreement because they are financially strapped…

You don’t have to like Unions, just don’t sit there and tell me we don’t need them or they are outdated!!


And P.S. Are you out of a job yet?

Keep buying imports

[Mike McKown]

John and Sir William are right on target. I worked for Ford for 31 years. 6 as a UAW member and 25 as lower and mid-level management. Do I support the need for unions? Absolutely!

It is NOT the unions that are driving business out of this country or out of North America. Its a lot of environmental laws, court decisions, tax laws and other factors.

Have you lost your job, yet? Good point. When you and other like you lose enough of your jobs because you bought offshore products, there'll be nobody left that has any money to buy anything here except a FEW!

PS. There are lazy people everywhere. Not just in unions.

[SoCalZX2]

PS. There are lazy people everywhere. Not just in unions.

Yes, but the lazy people everywhere else are actually fired :)

Don't take it the wrong way, I'm not against unions at all. I agree with why they are in place. The employee needs to be protected (so does the company, but they're usually good at doing that themselves)

[ed-flip]

lol exactly

[McG35]

You bash buying import cars but in my opinion, when America can make a quality car again, I will buy it...

[Sir William]

You bash buying import cars but in my opinion, when America can make a quality car again, I will buy it...


Looks like you're buying a new car

For the first time since 1993, Lexus is not alone as the top-ranked nameplate. This year, Buick ties with Lexus as the most dependable nameplate according to survey respondents. Cadillac, Mercury, and Honda round out the top five rank positions, respectively

[McG35]

Buick is FWD, when I am looking at a luxury car I am looking at a car that is very nice inside and out and has some balls, FWD is for 16 year olds and their ZX2's and Civics

[Sir William]

ROFLMAO, McG, I'm 39 years old if you didn't know.

Now, on with your next arguement

In order of ranking, the top three vehicles in each category of the 2007 J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Survey are:

Subcompact car: Rio/Rio5, Honda Fit, Hyundai Accent

Compact car: Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Hyundai Elantra

Compact sporty car: Mazda MX-5, Scion tC (not sold in Canada), Subaru Impreza

Compact premium sporty car:

Porsche Boxster, Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class, Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class

Entry premium car: Lincoln MKZ, Acura TSX, Cadillac CTS

Mid-size premium car:

Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Lexus GS, Infiniti M-Series and Volvo S80 (tie)

Large premium car: Audi A8 and Mercedes-Benz S-Class (tie), Lexus LS 460

Premium sporty car:

Mercedes-Benz SL-Class, Porsche 911, Lexus SC 430

Mid-size sporty car:

Ford Mustang, Toyota Solara, Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Mid-size car: Mercury Milan (not sold in Canada), Honda Accord, Ford Fusion and Mitsubishi Galant (tie)

Large car: Pontiac Grand Prix, Toyota Avalon, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego (not sold in Canada; tie)

Compact sport utility vehicle:

Honda CR-V, Nissan Xterra, Hyundai Tucson

Mid-size SUV: Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Highlander, Mercury Mountaineer (not sold in Canada)

Large SUV: Toyota Sequoia, Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Yukon

Mid-size premium SUV: Lexus RX 350, Lincoln MKX, Lexus GX 470

Large premium SUV: Lincoln Mark LT, Lincoln Navigator, Hummer H2

Large pickup: Chevrolet Silverado Classic HD, Ford F-150 LD, GMC Sierra LD

Mid-size pickup: Toyota Tacoma, Honda Ridgeline, Dodge Dakota

Minivan: Chevrolet Express, Kia Sedona, Ford E-Series

any other arguments McG.......

[Mike McKown]

[QUOTE=ZZZX2;

any other arguments McG.......[/QUOTE]

You may have left out one important point but I haven't looked at the ratings in several years. In the last decade, the difference between the best and the worst cars, regardless of country of origin, was so small it was insignificant. Is it still that way?

McG. If you want something with some balls, go buy one of the 427 Vettes that's on the market. That'll keep you busy for awhile. I think they even have one coming with a supercharger on it.

[McG35]

The ZR1 does have a supercharger, like I said, the corvette is the only american car I like, ANYWAY, to save everyone from a retarded long quote, I looked through that post and I would have to say about 75% of those cars are not american. You really did not help your cause.

I am pretty happy with my G35 except the gas mileage, but oh well.

The reason I do not like American cars is because in MY OPINION, the look like crap (except a few) they have cheap interiors, and I feel that they really did not put the time into engineering them. When a 4.6L V8 has the same HP as my 3.5L V6, it makes me think that American cars are behind alittle bit.

My .02

[powder]

The ZR1 does have a supercharger, like I said, the corvette is the only american car I like, ANYWAY, to save everyone from a retarded long quote, I looked through that post and I would have to say about 75% of those cars are not american. You really did not help your cause.

I am pretty happy with my G35 except the gas mileage, but oh well.

The reason I do not like American cars is because in MY OPINION, the look like crap (except a few) they have cheap interiors, and I feel that they really did not put the time into engineering them. When a 4.6L V8 has the same HP as my 3.5L V6, it makes me think that American cars are behind alittle bit.

My .02

Your car is slow though. A 13.5 in a Mustang isn't bad for a straight line. They're just not the greatest in the corners.