Is gay marriage Inevitable ??

[JonsZX2SR]

-> Is gay marriage inevitable in the U.S. ?? (http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/29/gay-marriage-in-the-us-inevitable/)

[JC'szx2]

yes it is. i'm not big on the marraige thing myself gay/strate its pointless to me.

[EmoRebellion]

I dont understand this at all.. What the hell does it hurt you if two men/women want to get married?

[zxtwou2]

a lot of people i know get offended by the word "marriage" being used with gay couples. they say it defiles their religious beliefs, since marriage is a sacred religious bond. civil unions is basically all a gay couple would need. i say the gov't should have NO hand in marriage at all...and possibly only offer bennefits to civil unions for ALL couples, gay, straight, whatever.

[ZetecInside]

Yes, it is inevitable - just like interracial marriage was many years ago, despite the protests of the ignorant and prejudiced. This last formal remnant of homophobia will eventually die out, and those standing in the way will be ridiculed by future historians.

[zxtwou2]

so when is polygomy and inter special marriage going to become the new "gay"? there will always be somebody complaining about unfair treatment..but where does it stop?

[jdrzx2]

Who cares, if they want to do that stuff let them. The only thing it's going to do is offend the people who don't want to see it and there's nothing they'll be able to do about it. I think it would be much easier to go with the flow and let things fall where they lay. Maybe everyone will get along better that way.

[Connal]

Inevitable? Nah. Not for me. I don't like dudes.

But I think it is going to get so common that it will eventually lose the shock value that all the people against it are afraid of.

Like what zetec said about interracial marriages. Back in the fifties that would get people hung/commited to an institution. Now it is much more common to see that. Yes, there are still ignorant bigots that spout off about racial differences. However it would be the same story if they wanted to own a business, marry someone of a different race, or even years ago vote.

Yes, I think for America gay marriage as a practice will become much more socially acceptable. There will always be those that oppose it. However, given time the vast majority of people get over the thought, and it keeps moving ahead.

Look at it the reverse way. A hundred years ago girls were getting married by as early as 14. Sometimes younger. Back then, that was acceptable. She was of "marrying age" and got married and started taking care of the house. Today, that is quite unacceptable. If someone hugs their 14 year old daughter in public, they have child services breaking down the door for being a pervert.

Society itself changes and adapts to the people it is built around. All change is inevitable.

[JonsZX2SR]

a lot of people i know get offended by the word "marriage" being used with gay couples. they say it defiles their religious beliefs, since marriage is a sacred religious bond. civil unions is basically all a gay couple would need. i say the gov't should have NO hand in marriage at all...and possibly only offer bennefits to civil unions for ALL couples, gay, straight, whatever.

I understand that some people feel offended because it conflicts with their religious beliefs...

However, why should they impose their beliefs on others ?? Expecting someone who is not of a particular religion to behave according to that religion is nopthing more than imposing relious beliefs on others.

This conflicts with the freedom to practice a religion of one's choosing, including no religion. What part of this don't certain fundamentalist individuals understand.

If people are correct and it is wrong, the creator will take care of this during judgement at the end of the persons life. The creator doesn't need any one of us to do the creator's job.

If anything, the rush to judge and impose beliefs on people speaks of a lack of faith. That being the case, those who try to impose their religious beliefs on others have as big a probelm as those they condemn.

[JessicaOfVA]

I agree with you Jon, that it is imposing their beliefs onto other people. By the way our country is setup and what our laws are founded on, yes gay marriage should be legal. This country was founded on Freedom. I do believe that gay marriage is inevitable.

Now as far as the people who do not want gay marriage legalized... they also don't want their children exposed to it. A lot of Christian families fight real hard to keep their children from being exposed to "evil" things. And it's getting harder and harder. Sex and violence is plastered all over the media. You're exposed to it by just driving/walking down the street. So by legalizing gay marriage, that will possibly be yet another influence they have to try to combat for their children.

[EmoRebellion]

:( I was hoping to battle some serious right-wing homophobes in here, but it appears they're all too afraid to post their opinions.. :shrug:

[JonsZX2SR]

...Now as far as the people who do not want gay marriage legalized... they also don't want their children exposed to it. A lot of Christian families fight real hard to keep their children from being exposed to "evil" things. And it's getting harder and harder. Sex and violence is plastered all over the media. You're exposed to it by just driving/walking down the street. So by legalizing gay marriage, that will possibly be yet another influence they have to try to combat for their children.

In principle I agree with your concerns. However, aren't parents better off acknowledging that unpleasant things are out in the world and then teaching children right and wrong and how to make good decisions ??

It comes down to how much confidence parents have they can raise their children with good values and decision making abilities. I think much more than 90% of parents do a very good job. The solution for those who are unable to raise their children well is to provide outside help, rather than try to legislate everything unpleasant that happens in the world.

Stuff is going to happen anyway. Without gay marriage their are still going to be gay couples. There are also going to be straight couples who live questionable lifestyles, people who prey on others, etc.

Isn't it better to allow your children to see all that is wrong in the world 9at appropriate ages) and teach them right from wrong, rather than suppress that knowledge and risk them being exposed later in life without the tools to make good choices.

[JessicaOfVA]

I think it's just easier to teach your child something is wrong if both religion and government frown upon it. I don't see gay couples on a regular basis, but I'm sure once it's legal to be married... it will be a more common sight. The more a child is exposed to something they start to question what is wrong with it. A parent can do their best to steer a child from certain things and to teach them right from wrong, and they might still follow the crowd. You can't determine your child's personality. So it does make it harder and I can understand that.

But I do think it is unrealistic to expect others to follow your beliefs. You just have to teach and guide your children, then hope for the best. And hopefully those extremist don't have a child that turns out to be gay.

I'll do my best to teach my child my religuous beliefs, but when it comes down to it... I'll love my child regardless of their lifestyle choice. People tend to forget that the Bible teaches us about love and forgiveness... and to even love our enemies. We are not supposed to judge others, it is not our place.

[Larka]

And hopefully those extremist don't have a child that turns out to be gay.


And when they do- they'll start a fanatical group and go protest all over the US every chance they get... :eyes: One of Fred Phelps' kids is gay.

[JessicaOfVA]

Sorry I don't keep up on a lot. Who is Fred Phelps? Is that the minister for that Baptist church out in like Kansas?


Edit: Okay just Googled him. Yup he's that guy. That's really sad. Everyone has to make their own decisions. People are too full of hate!

[SoCalZX2]

I love how those of us who do not agree with gay marriage are automatically homophobes. lol

I don't post my opinion because I get called out on it. It's MY opinion just like allowing it is YOUR opinion. I don't go around posting why I don't agree with yours and why I think you're wrong and call you close minded and yadda yadda yadda...

There is no point in throwing myself out to the wolves. I'm not a homophobe, I have ZERO personal problems with gays. But due to MY belief system I do NOT agree with gay marriage. I see it as an inevitability because the country itself has no moral compass anymore. Which is just how it is. But don't call me closeminded or a homophobe because I don't feel a requirement to conform to YOUR beliefs either.

If it's not ok to impose my beliefs on anyone, why can you impose yours by calling me names for not agreeing? Hypocrite much?

[ZetecInside]

If it's not ok to impose my beliefs on anyone, why can you impose yours by calling me names for not agreeing? Hypocrite much?

That's not "imposing one's beliefs". Imposing a belief involves preventing or forcing action on someone through force or coersion, not merely criticizing one's words.

And there is a difference between what opponents of gay marriage are doing and what proponents of gay marriage are doing.

Proponents of gay marriage are not imposing their beliefs on anyone. They are attempting to give all consenting adults the freedom to marry who they choose. If they were trying to force straight people into getting gay marriages, or preventing straight people from getting straight marriages THAT would be imposing their beliefs.

Opponents of gay marriage ARE imposing their beliefs on people by voting to keep gay marriage illegal. This denies gays an important right on the basis of a religious belief that they do not share. Them obtaining a gay marriage license does not have any tangible negative impact on any straight couple doing the same, so there is no justifiable reason to prevent them from doing so.

[ZetecInside]

And when they do- they'll start a fanatical group and go protest all over the US every chance they get... One of Fred Phelps' kids is gay.

Fred Phelps needs to die in a fiery car crash so he can spend the rest of eternity getting tortured in hell.

[JonsZX2SR]

I wouldn't wish a horrible death on Fred Phelps or anyone else. What happens to them is between themselves and the creator.

...It would not surprise me if Rev. Phelps, Rev. Falwell and others who have spread hate wind up in a different place than the fiery underworld. Imagine Fred, Jerry and others who spewed intolerance serving the faithful in the afterlife as waiters, servants, janitors, etc.

They could observe the rewards of the faithful, but they couldn't participate. This seems a lot more fair than just casting them into the darkness or into a fiery chasm. Let them observe for eternity what they threw away through intolerance.

On another note, as much as I dislike Dick Cheney, he has a gay daughter and from all I have read he has accepted her at a basic level. if a right wing Republican can show some tolerance and acceptance, maybe the rest of us could learn to do the same.

[CraZx2ing]

I love how those of us who do not agree with gay marriage are automatically homophobes. lol

I don't post my opinion because I get called out on it. It's MY opinion just like allowing it is YOUR opinion. I don't go around posting why I don't agree with yours and why I think you're wrong and call you close minded and yadda yadda yadda...

There is no point in throwing myself out to the wolves. I'm not a homophobe, I have ZERO personal problems with gays. But due to MY belief system I do NOT agree with gay marriage. I see it as an inevitability because the country itself has no moral compass anymore. Which is just how it is. But don't call me closeminded or a homophobe because I don't feel a requirement to conform to YOUR beliefs either.

If it's not ok to impose my beliefs on anyone, why can you impose yours by calling me names for not agreeing? Hypocrite much?
x2

[SoCalZX2]

That whole post is why I don't pipe up. Forcing the issue on EITHER side is imposing ones beliefs. Sorry you don't see it that way, and you go ahead and think I'm a homophobe if it'll let you sleep at night.

[CraZx2ing]

I love that people have said that about me because of my religious beliefs, yet my wife and I were introduced by her gay uncle. We also hang out with him and his partner at some point just about every weekend.

Ahhh, good times. :eyes:

[SoCalZX2]

Yet it's hatred and ignorance that causes people like me and you to believe what we do... I mean, we can't really just have our own opinion, we have to be hate mongers and homophobes...

[JonsZX2SR]

How is allowing gay marriage forcing the issue on those who oppose it ?? They don't have to enter into a gay marriage or engage in gay activities. Complaining about seeing something you don't like is overly sensitive. if you don't like it don't watch.

On the other hand banning gay marriage does interfere with gays entering into a full legal relationship. I'd say the the two sides are not equivalent. Those who oppose gay marriage are being oppressive to others.

If someone feels strongly about forbidding gay marriage, they should forbid themself to engage in such activity and draw the line tere. I realize the point is moot, but it does illustrate how one side of the argument crosses the line of deciding for self and tries to decide for others.

[SoCalZX2]

Again, thank you for pointing out why I don't normally put my .02 in on this topic.

These topics just turn into people hating on other people for their opinion and beliefs. What I find funny is that you all bitch and moan about how intolerant Christians and Fundamentalists are.

Yet you people are more intolerant of my beliefs. Who's the hypocrite here? Again, I don't have a problem with gay people as people. I'm not a homophobe, I'm not a hatemonger. But to make yourselves feel better you throw us all into a group of intolerant idiots.

How is it forcing the issue? How about when the Gov't decides to overrule what the masses decided. That is FORCING my vote to CONFORM to what the FEW want instead of what the MAJORITY wanted.

Political Correctness and making sure we don't step on anyones toes is going to turn this country into a smelting pot of little to no morals.

Marriage is PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. (I agree that most hetro's shouldn't be ALLOWED to get married either). The institution of marriage has become a joke as a whole. So in reality it won't really hurt what the institution of marriage has become. But for those of us who believe in what it used to be, this is a slap in the face to that institution.

So just because I agree that it won't hurt the joke that is now the institution of marriage, does that mean I have to agree to allow it? Nope!

[J-Dizzle!]

SoCal, I haven't seen anyone call you a homophobe in this discussion, or be disrespectful to you in anyway. Questioning your way of thinking to get a better understanding does not mean they are being aggressive.

I am going to ask you a question... if your state were voting on whether or not to legalize gay marriage would you NOT impose your beliefs by voting that anyone should be able to do what they want, or would you impose your beliefs by forbidding them to do what they want?

It's not an aggressive question, so I hope you don't take it that way. If you think people will bash you for your answer would you at least PM me what you think? I really am curious.

[J-Dizzle!]

I reread your post and actually already have my question answered. Thank you anyway.

[JonsZX2SR]

You don't have to agree to allow it, but you have no right to agree to disallow it.

How would you feel about repealing all laws that specify whether marriage is between a man and a woman, two men or two women. There would simply be no laws specifying. the decison would solely be up to the couple and the marrying agent.

Then you wouldn't have to agree to allow it because it would be none of your 9or anyone else's) business.

Happy now...?

[JessicaOfVA]

So here's something else to ponder... If/When gay marriage is legalized, will that open the floodgates for people to push to allow other unions as well? (ie. A man having multiple wives -or- A woman marrying her dog) Should those unions then be allowed? Why or why not?


(NOTE: I'm not saying that those unions should be allowed, just playing Devil's Advocate.)

[SoCalZX2]

So here's something else to ponder... If/When gay marriage is legalized, will that open the floodgates for people to push to allow other unions as well? (ie. A man having multiple wives -or- A woman marrying her dog) Should those unions then be allowed? Why or why not?


(NOTE: I'm not saying that those unions should be allowed, just playing Devil's Advocate.)

I believe that was brought up. At what point does it stop?

[SoCalZX2]

:( I was hoping to battle some serious right-wing homophobes in here, but it appears they're all too afraid to post their opinions.. :shrug:

Happy Justine? ;) (you weren't around yet for the other "discussion" had about gay marriage on the new site. I'm sure the post is around there somewhere. They aren't personal attacks, as in attacking me, just my view point, which you haven't seen me do to anyone who doesn't oppose gay marriage. As a Christian I'm being basically persecuted for my view on the subject, when the opinion was openly asked for)

Obviously ANYONE who doesn't agree with gay marriage is a right wing homophobe.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. But in all honesty, no one wants my opinion on the subject. EVERYTIME this subject is brought up, anyone who voices ANY opposition to it is considered by most here homophobic or a hatemonger or ignorant.

So who is more intolerant? A christian standing up for his beliefs or a group of people who can't hear the other side of the coin? I know and have heard the other side of the coin, and yet in any of these discussions you don't see me trying to persuede ANYONE elses beliefs or decisions. Yet with every post Jon makes he's trying to point out basically how wrong I am to have this opinion.

These posts are merely fights looking for a place to happen.

Jon, I have every right as an american to agree to disallow anything I want. It's why the voting system is in place. So the masses can decide a lot of things. Why not repeal ALL laws then. If I don't have a right on this topic to voice my opinion with a vote, why have voting. Just go back to another form of Gov't. Why does this one vote matter so much to you?

J-Dizzel, if you're going to say that by my voting to ban gay marriage I am imposing my belief, then how is a vote for gay marriage NOT imposing someone elses belief? Thats a serious question.

I am btw finished posting in this topic. It is 100% obvious that no one really wants to see any opinion that isn't alligned with allowing gay marriages. I'll be back to read any replies to my previous post, but I'm tired of these discussions.

[J-Dizzle!]

You are getting WAY too defensive about this. And I do believe I was around for a topic about gay marriage... I think I left the site immediately following that discussion.

I don't persecute you or attack you for your beliefs. You have every right to them as much as I. But you better believe that if a majority of my community voted that I not be able to marry Andrew I would be pretty fucking pissed at that community that had just denied me something that I believe to be an important spiritual journey for myself.

I think that if your neighborhood got together and said that you and your wife had to get divorced because it was their religious belief that you should not be together, and you were legally bound to divorce her, you'd be pretty pissed too. Am I wrong? Or would you chalk it up to the will of the majority, and move happily along in your life as a single white male who cannot marry the person he loves?

[JonsZX2SR]

Jon, I have every right as an american to agree to disallow anything I want. It's why the voting system is in place. So the masses can decide a lot of things. Why not repeal ALL laws then. If I don't have a right on this topic to voice my opinion with a vote, why have voting. Just go back to another form of Gov't. Why does this one vote matter so much to you?

It isn't the vote, it's the message you are trying to convince others to follow. JDizzle made an interesting observation. You are being very defensive about this topic.

You obviously don't understand the US Constitution. Majority does not always rule, that is why we have a constitution, which is difficult to change. 99% of the people can vote for something that conflicts with the constitution and it will be ruled unconstitutional.

Despite what you believe, Americans do not have an absolute right to disallow things they oppose on a preference basis, even if a majority want to disallow that something. Your argument is just wrong on these lines, and therefore invalid.

The Constitution was deliberately made difficult to amend, so voters in one generation couldn't get around safeguards. It is there to protect the rights of a minority if the majority wants to impose their will on basic freedoms.

Can you imagine a majority of whites voting to reinstitute slavery, women (they are the majority) voting to deny men the vote, or people over 30 voting for a 50% surcharge on taxes paid by those under 30 to help balance the budget ?? What about the majority of people who have a incomes less than $100K a year voting to tax incomes above $1million at a 99% rate (let them keep 1% and tax the first $1 million normally.) These are all things a majority could do, but impose on the freedoms we share.

Your argument about repealing all laws is absurd. Laws are there to protect people from harmful or abusing behaviors. How does allowing gays to marry harm anyone ??

The majority does not have unlimited rights to legislate that minorities have to behave as they are told by law. If you think that is the case, you obviously do not understand the US legal system.

Have you noticed what has happened in MA, CA and a few other states ?? Laws specifically outlawing gay marriage are being overturned by court rulings. To then prevent gay marriage the voters would have to actively get new laws passed banning gay marriage.

That sounds a lot like a segment of the population trying to impose their will on others and being intolerant. Are you part of that segment ??

[JonsZX2SR]

I wonder how various contributors would respond to a situation described in the following link...

-> Objections to lesbians kissing (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/05/seattle.kiss.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview) at a Seattle Mariners baseball game.

My personal response would be if the degree of "public display of affection" would be considered acceptible by a heterosexual couple I wouldn't complain.

However, if the PDA would be considered inappropriate for a straight couple, I'd complain regardless of whether the couple was gay, straight, FLDS, or extraterrestrial.

Comments ??

[PHeller]

Sabrina looked pretty hot.

I would complain if two people were making out in front of my kids, gay, straight, or hot lesbians.

[SoCalZX2]

IMO huge PDA is bad no matter the couple. If I pay to go to a baseball or football game, I'm not paying to see people make out (gay, straight w/e doesn't matter). I'm paying to see the game, and that kind of thing is a distraction and uncalled for.

I didn't see any particulars there, but a kiss here or there isn't a problem IMO, but if the person that was offended believed them to be making out as she accused others of, then the complaining person was justified.

If they were complaining due to orientation, thats not justified IMO if the PDA was minimal.

[JonsZX2SR]

Apparently Las Vegas (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/08/TR2V10R39T.DTL) is becoming more openly gay. I guess the saying the "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" will take on a new meaning.

[JonsZX2SR]

Let's toss a little more fuel on the fires of debate. These guys don't fit the stereotype of the lean, well dressed metrosexual, but they represent another version of gay couples...

Should gay couples be allowed to adopt ?? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24890159/)

[rlbzx2]

I tell ya what...there are definitely some interesting viewpoints in this thread...and I agree...I think you are about to add a lot more fuel to this "potential" fire.

[panda_bear]

I am a self-proclaimed homophobe. I have reasons for feeling this way:

1.) I find it is condemned by my religion.

2.) every other society that accepted homosexuality openly and widely soon fell (Rome, Sparta, Greece...).

3.) It is widely unnatural. Whether or not a gay penguin couple gets together or not (supposedly) it doesn't matter considering that this is nothing close to an issue with almost every other species out there.

4.) I have met very FEW gay people that I liked as people (looking aside from their sexuality). Most are completely arrogant and narcissistic, and/or they are stuck up.

5.) No matter how you want to switch the issue around, you not accepting my intolerance is just as intolerant as me not accepting your tolerance. The only thing is, that I am open enough to accept that I am intolerant. You cannot include everyone, no matter how liberal you are. Consider that two of the most FAR left wing organizations (the NAACP and PETA) were in complete disagreement about the case of Micheal Vick fighting dogs. You are intolerent to, get over it and accept it.

6.) Homosexuality is often linked to depression, bipolar disorder and other mental disorders which are widely caused by CHEMICAL IMBALANCES, not circumstances. Thus it is linked to mental disorders, and is not (always) a cause of them. I have yet to meet a gay person who didn't have some sort of mental disorder.

7.) Marriage is an institution for one man and one woman. No one is stopping these gays from having a wedding ceremony, it just won't be legally recognized. I am engaged now and I would still marry her if it didn't get me tax breaks. Why don't gays do it to? In fact it would be a good protest, getting "married" without the monetary bennifits just out of this supposed same sex "love". Leads me to beleive this same sex marriage thing has little to do with love, and more to do with money.

8.) Gays are reported to, and admittedly, have over 10 times the sexual partners as straights.This is especially surprising since they have a shorter life span (The average gay life span is around 47 years old) and there are fewer gay fish in the sea... Just remember the old gay saying "There are plenty more gay and bi-curious fish in the sea I haven't slept with yet..." *end sarcasm*

9.) Allowing gays to adopt children is going to force the children into lives of instability and ridicule by other children as well as adults. If two consenting adults want to take on the world, that is one thing. But dragging a child into it is just cruel.

To answer the probably inevitable question "What if my kid turns out gay?". First, highly unlikely. But if it does happen I will still love them but never "accept" their lifestyle. If they can't handle my intolerance, then they don't have to be around me. That won't make me love them any less.

So here is your chance EmoRebellion, a real right wing homophobe for you to argue with (although I will probably vote for Obama, who, for the record, also opposes gay marriage.)

[Gregersonke]

Screw him, I'm going to fight you on it

1.) I find it is condemned by my religion.


Regardless of whether or not my religion supports gay marriage. I'm not going to lift a finger against those who want to live in one way.


Regardless of whether or not my religion supports gay marriage. I'm not going to lift a finger to care.

All mentioned societies were quite different from the US. No?? Even then, the US is still the longest lived democratic government in history. The longest Empire was the Ottoman at 469 years in China. The average time for any one empire/government in world history is 200 years. The roman empire lasted for over 500 years http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061027183334AAt8Xho Greece has an average government life of what looks to be about 300 years http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/History/. So your historical reference is moot...


3.) It is widely unnatural. Whether or not a gay penguin couple gets together or not (supposedly) it doesn't matter considering that this is nothing close to an issue with almost every other species out there.


Animals have gone gay before and some are asexual. Doesn't mean that they get to move their genes on though. But, I guarantee that to a gay person it feels just as natural for them to be gay as it does for you or I to be straight. If you don't want to accept it, that is a different issue.

4.) I have met very FEW gay people that I liked as people (looking aside from their sexuality). Most are completely arrogant and narcissistic, and/or they are stuck up.

They practically have to be. Because otherwise they'd be listening to people like you all day and driving themselves nuts with conflicting emotions.

5.) No matter how you want to switch the issue around, you not accepting my intolerance is just as intolerant as me not accepting your tolerance. The only thing is, that I am open enough to accept that I am intolerant. You cannot include everyone, no matter how liberal you are. Consider that two of the most FAR left wing organizations (the NAACP and PETA) were in complete disagreement about the case of Micheal Vick fighting dogs. You are intolerent to, get over it and accept it.

I accept that you don't like it. However, to be intolerant is your choice. Closing yourself off like that as a limit is just asking for something to blow your mind away. Gay people will always be here. Funny how you mention sports fans. You have a favorite team right now. What if half the players on that team where gay? Would it change your view? Suddenly, could you love another team the same?

I think you could..



6.) Homosexuality is often linked to depression, bipolar disorder and other mental disorders which are widely caused by CHEMICAL IMBALANCES, not circumstances. Thus it is linked to mental disorders, and is not (always) a cause of them. I have yet to meet a gay person who didn't have some sort of mental disorder.

Depression, bipolar, haha... I could possibly see depression from things that happen to them ie AIDS, HIV. Also, having to hide their sexuality against the world for so long. Hiding a secret about yourself that you are proud of for all your life. Ya, I think I'd be depressed too. As for your experience, how many gay people have you actually met and talked to on a real personal level?



7.) Marriage is an institution for one man and one woman. No one is stopping these gays from having a wedding ceremony, it just won't be legally recognized. I am engaged now and I would still marry her if it didn't get me tax breaks. Why don't gays do it to? In fact it would be a good protest, getting "married" without the monetary bennifits just out of this supposed same sex "love". Leads me to beleive this same sex marriage thing has little to do with love, and more to do with money.

Okay, lets make sure that they have to follow all the same rules. Like in California where you have to be split up and living separately for 6 months before you can officially divorce. Lets not forget about community property.

8.) Gays are reported to, and admittedly, have over 10 times the sexual partners as straights.This is especially surprising since they have a shorter life span (The average gay life span is around 47 years old) and there are fewer gay fish in the sea... Just remember the old gay saying "There are plenty more gay and bi-curious fish in the sea I haven't slept with yet..." *end sarcasm*

How is this relevant to your argument? How many sexual partners a person has only really affects their risk of getting something. Not them as a person. I've met a number of female and male sluts in my time. They aren't weird at all.

9.) Allowing gays to adopt children is going to force the children into lives of instability and ridicule by other children as well as adults. If two consenting adults want to take on the world, that is one thing. But dragging a child into it is just cruel.

I've known children who had parents who were gay. They turned out pretty damn well.

Maybe they get teased more, or get excluded because of it. But you know what, the times you grow the most are the times when you are in the most pain. That probably explains some of the results I've seen.

To answer the probably inevitable question "What if my kid turns out gay?". First, highly unlikely. But if it does happen I will still love them but never "accept" their lifestyle. If they can't handle my intolerance, then they don't have to be around me. That won't make me love them any less.

If you love them, you will have to accept it. Because failure to do so is only going to drive a wedge between you and him/her.

Highly unlikely?? I doubt it, the statistics show its about 5-10 percent.

[JonsZX2SR]

A reasonable set of opinions might warrant a reasonable response. Your post isn't one of them. There are times when it is better to use satire to mock foolish or ignorant opinions.

1. What church do you belong to, it wouldn't be the Westboro Baptist Church (http://www.godhatesfags.com/). By any chance are you the Rev. Fred Phelps (http://www.adl.org/special_reports/wbc/default.asp). You sound like him. I want to make sure I don't join some church and risk ethernal damnation for becoming an intolerant fool.

2. I'd worry more about the US having ignorant homophobes living in our midst than having a gay population and tolerating them. Societies have collapsed from other things such as intolerance. Nazi Germany didn't tolerate gays either and persecuted them.

3. Homosexuality occurs in nature, mostly due to population pressures. So dopes intolerance and ignorance. How do we know these aren't a response programmed into people. Regardless to some extent it is personal choice, Ignorance and intolerance are unnatural as well (believing the human species should try to better themselves.) You've made that choice, let others make their own.

4. With you being a self-admitted homophobe, being disliked by you might be taken as a compliment or a sign a person is a reasonable human being. I'd worry more about the US having ignorant homophobes living in our midst than having a gay population and tolerating them. I doubt very few people like you, either here or in the world in general.

5. But most of us do accept your ignorance and intolerance. It is your choice, we realize you don't have the mental capacity to do something about it, the same way some gays are genetically programmed to be gay.

6. Ignorance and the need to publically push ones views intolerance on others is related to a wide range of mental disorders. I suggest you get yourself to a counsellor and have yourself medicated for your own good. :rofl:

7. Marriage is an institution for one man and one woman, but it isn't exclusively limited to that situation. Some religions or cultures allow for multiple husbands or wives. The supreme court or numerous have ruled allowing gays to marry in some states. Who should I listen to, the judicial opinions or your ignorant, biased opinion. What part of your opinion carries no weight around here don't you understand ??

8. You are using this argument without adequate proof. I suggest you get your ass out in the field and do some hands-on research about the sexual habits of gay men. You can report back when your done. :rofl:

9. Kids rebel against their parents during their teenage years. Have you considered the possibility some teens might choose to go straight inresponse to their gay parents. Who knows, maybe some kids will rebel against intolerant homophobes, seek you out and kick your butt.

Emo wants to do battle with homophobes, and apparently pushed your buttons. You're trying to push other peoples buttons. I'm going to mock you and push your buttons to see how you respond. I encourage others who disagree with you to do the same. Let the mocking begin..! :rofl:

in the words of Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, "How do you like those apples ?"

[panda_bear]

I love how people always try to make people who are intolerant sound ignorant or just plain stupid. The reason I love it, is because I enjoy proving it wrong. Since your attacks have been much more of a personal nature than a political nature, let me respond to those.

1.) Book smarts, I have plenty of. I am in my 3rd year of college, and have made good grades. I was homeschooled until the 10th grade where I took my GED to get into college early. My score was the equivilant of the top 3 percentile of TRADITIONAL high school graduates, out of the 10th grade.

2.) street smarts/common sense? Everyone I know, be they gay straight, liberals, conservatives, etc. have told me that I have a very level head and that I contain a lot of common sense. Outside of this arguement, I have little doubt you all would like me as a person because I am surprisingly laid back and easy going, with my own little cynical sense of humor.

3.) I am not sheltered from gay people. Ever worked in a resturaunt? Over half of the waiters I have known and worked with have been gay. When I was still forming my opinions on the issue I did have personal conversations with them and hung out with them and such ouitside of work. I drew my opinions not in ignorance, but knowing them very very well.

4.) I was able to keep this arguement as political and impersonal as possible. I never made personal attacks just what I have noticed in general about the gay community. Your attacks however have been personal not that I really care. It just shows how insecure you are in your own arguement that you cannot let facts and figures speak for themselves. As someone who has studied politics extensively on both sides of almost every arguement, I have determined that there are intelligent beleifs on both sides of any arguement. Don't believe me? Look it up. The internet is a widely open resource.

5.) While I beleive one's faith is a valid reason to beleive in anything, I have found that in a political arguement most debunk it quickly so I was sure not to make a large deal out of it. as you said Jon, "1. What church do you belong to. I want to make sure I don't join and risk ethernal damnation for becoming an intolerant fool." you are making assumptions about my eternal security which I never did to anyone else (gays can go to heaven just like anyone else. A sin is a sin, right?). If you want to argue religion, does the Bible not say judge not lest ye be judged? And you obviously judged that I am condemned to Hell, although since you eluded to the Christian faith, you violated your own commandment which is most often used AGAINST intolerence. Thus I will counter that "arguement" by saying "What church do you attend, so I am sure not to go there. I don't want to be surrounded by a bunch of wishy washy hyppoctrites who only follow their beleifs of not judging when it satisfies their own political agenda.

6.) My last point before I go (busy day ahead). You are obviously ignorant to the fact that there are differing degrees of homophobia (the dislike of homosexuals). Just because I don't try and say "I'm not a homophobe" you think I am at a level somewhere between hatred and wishing for the destruction of all gays. One of the people I have a lot of respect for is a flaming queen, and he knows I'm homophobic. He seems to accept that pretty well but I still don't agree with his lifestyle. One of my best friends was bi-curious for a while and although I didn't like that part, he was still one of my best friends. Why not try and figure out what and why I beleive in certain things than making these assumptions?

[panda_bear]

"You came her to post and push other peoples buttons. I'm going to mock you and push your buttons to see how you respond. I encourage others who disagree with you to do the same."

No, I came here to offer a differing view because I thought it was open. If I wanted to push buttons I would have done so a lot better. If buttons were pushed, so what? By the way you just debunked your own arguement insinuating that your responses were made only to push my buttons and not because you wanted to have a serious debate or discussion.

"6. Ignorance and the need to publically push ones views intolerance on others is related to a wide range of mental disorders. I suggest you get yourself to a counsellor and have yourself medicated for your own good."

I am medicated thanks for the offer though. :)

[SoCalZX2]

Panda - These are ALWAYS bait topics... just leave it alone.

[panda_bear]

Panda - These are ALWAYS bait topics... just leave it alone.

I am not sure exactly what bait topics means, but I have decided to leave it alone. Even though they say they want opposing views they don't handle them well so I am just going to stay out of the politics and religion sub forum. There is no sense ruffling feathers of a bunch of people who just want to spend their time agreeing with each other.

[panda_bear]

Happy Justine? ;) (you weren't around yet for the other "discussion" had about gay marriage on the new site. I'm sure the post is around there somewhere. They aren't personal attacks, as in attacking me, just my view point, which you haven't seen me do to anyone who doesn't oppose gay marriage. As a Christian I'm being basically persecuted for my view on the subject, when the opinion was openly asked for)

Obviously ANYONE who doesn't agree with gay marriage is a right wing homophobe.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. But in all honesty, no one wants my opinion on the subject. EVERYTIME this subject is brought up, anyone who voices ANY opposition to it is considered by most here homophobic or a hatemonger or ignorant.

So who is more intolerant? A christian standing up for his beliefs or a group of people who can't hear the other side of the coin? I know and have heard the other side of the coin, and yet in any of these discussions you don't see me trying to persuede ANYONE elses beliefs or decisions. Yet with every post Jon makes he's trying to point out basically how wrong I am to have this opinion.

These posts are merely fights looking for a place to happen.

Jon, I have every right as an american to agree to disallow anything I want. It's why the voting system is in place. So the masses can decide a lot of things. Why not repeal ALL laws then. If I don't have a right on this topic to voice my opinion with a vote, why have voting. Just go back to another form of Gov't. Why does this one vote matter so much to you?

J-Dizzel, if you're going to say that by my voting to ban gay marriage I am imposing my belief, then how is a vote for gay marriage NOT imposing someone elses belief? Thats a serious question.

I am btw finished posting in this topic. It is 100% obvious that no one really wants to see any opinion that isn't alligned with allowing gay marriages. I'll be back to read any replies to my previous post, but I'm tired of these discussions.

Shoulda read this more carefully before I even posted anything. Ditto man.

[JonsZX2SR]

I am medicated thanks for the offer though. :)

I figured as much. It's going to fun for everyone here to mess with your head...

[ZetecInside]

I am a self-proclaimed homophobe. I have reasons for feeling this way:

[QUOTE]1.) I find it is condemned by my religion.

Which religion is that? If it's Judaism, Islam, or Christianity, your religion also condemns premarital sex. Ever done that?

2.) every other society that accepted homosexuality openly and widely soon fell (Rome, Sparta, Greece...).

Gregersonke already addressed this. Pick up a history book and do a little math.

3.) It is widely unnatural. Whether or not a gay penguin couple gets together or not (supposedly) it doesn't matter considering that this is nothing close to an issue with almost every other species out there.

It's not "supposed". Consistent homosexual behavior among select organisms has been documented in hundreds of animal species all over the world. If it occurs in nature, it isn't unnatural.

And even if it was unnatural, what difference does that make? We, as humans, do millions of things every day that are unnatural, and practically no one raises a moral issue about them. Bathing, synthetic medicine, wearing clothes, mechanized transport, contraception? Are these part of the "natural order" of humans?

4.) I have met very FEW gay people that I liked as people (looking aside from their sexuality). Most are completely arrogant and narcissistic, and/or they are stuck up.

Anyone could make a generalization like this about their experiences with a small sample of a minority group. A lot of people justify ethnic or racial hatred based on negative experiences with a few members of an ethnic group. It's purely coincidental.

5.) No matter how you want to switch the issue around, you not accepting my intolerance is just as intolerant as me not accepting your tolerance. The only thing is, that I am open enough to accept that I am intolerant. You cannot include everyone, no matter how liberal you are.

The difference is, your intolerance represents active hostility to a minority group. The minority group in question is not actively hostile to anyone else.

Consider that two of the most FAR left wing organizations (the NAACP and PETA) were in complete disagreement about the case of Micheal Vick fighting dogs. You are intolerent to, get over it and accept it.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please elaborate.

6.) Homosexuality is often linked to depression, bipolar disorder and other mental disorders which are widely caused by CHEMICAL IMBALANCES, not circumstances. Thus it is linked to mental disorders, and is not (always) a cause of them. I have yet to meet a gay person who didn't have some sort of mental disorder.

Homosexuality is indirectly, not directly, linked to mental disorders. The reason for this is because the social stigma of homosexuality. People who are ridiculed, ostracized, and hated (for any reason) are pretty likely to develop emotional problems.

7.) Marriage is an institution for one man and one woman.

Depends on where you live. "Marriage" is a societal construct, and some societies define it differently.

No one is stopping these gays from having a wedding ceremony, it just won't be legally recognized. I am engaged now and I would still marry her if it didn't get me tax breaks. Why don't gays do it to? In fact it would be a good protest, getting "married" without the monetary bennifits just out of this supposed same sex "love". Leads me to beleive this same sex marriage thing has little to do with love, and more to do with money.

So if you criticize gays for being "all about the money", I suppose you plan on not utilizing your marriage writeoffs on your next tax return? And you don't plan on using spousal benefits on your company insurance? Why don't you put your "money" where your mouth is?

8.) Gays are reported to, and admittedly, have over 10 times the sexual partners as straights.This is especially surprising since they have a shorter life span (The average gay life span is around 47 years old)

I call maaaaajor bullshit on these little "facts" of yours. Let's see a source, guy.

9.) Allowing gays to adopt children is going to force the children into lives of instability and ridicule by other children as well as adults. If two consenting adults want to take on the world, that is one thing. But dragging a child into it is just cruel.

In many, more racist parts of America, an interracial couple procreating is condemning that child to a life of ridicule. Should interracial couples not be allowed to have children simply because of the potential ignorance and bigotry of their peers?

To answer the probably inevitable question "What if my kid turns out gay?". First, highly unlikely. But if it does happen I will still love them but never "accept" their lifestyle. If they can't handle my intolerance, then they don't have to be around me. That won't make me love them any less.

Nothing says "I love you" like the sentence "get out of my house, queer."

So here is your chance EmoRebellion, a real right wing homophobe for you to argue with (although I will probably vote for Obama, who, for the record, also opposes gay marriage.)

Obama says he opposes gay marriage because he's smart enough to understand the national voter polls on the issue. I'd be willing to bet money that his private beliefs on the subject are very different.

[raider]

subscribed

[SoCalZX2]

Obama says he opposes gay marriage because he's smart enough to understand the national voter polls on the issue. I'd be willing to bet money that his private beliefs on the subject are very different.

Sorry, I just have to point this out... You just blatantly called Obama a liar then LOL. Good job! Or you just pointed out that he says one thing and means another... Either way, you didn't do him any favors by making that comment.

[ZetecInside]

Sorry, I just have to point this out... You just blatantly called Obama a liar then LOL. Good job! Or you just pointed out that he says one thing and means another... Either way, you didn't do him any favors by making that comment.

I'm not an Obama supporter, so I don't have any qualms about questioning his honesty.


And all politicians are liars, just in different degrees. They have to be if they want to win elections. Can you imagine what would happen if every politician stated publicly, and with complete honesty, all their private beliefs? People would be shocked and offended at all of them.

[SoCalZX2]

I'm not an Obama supporter, so I don't have any qualms about questioning his honesty.


And all politicians are liars, just in different degrees.

That I completely agree with :)

Just seems most of this board are Obama supporters, so I had to point out the irony (which now doesn't exist lol)

[trekkor]

Isn't this issue really about gaining public approval for sodomy?

Be honest.


KT

[ZetecInside]

Isn't this issue really about gaining public approval for sodomy?

Be honest.


KT

Not really.

Oral sex (which is a type of sodomy) is already pretty accepted among the American public.

[trekkor]

No dodging.

We're talking about the unatural use of the RECTUM.


KT

[blue_2001]

but some women like their rectum violated

[krux]

Gay marriage is going to have to happen. Since me and sir william well are kind of together now. So were going to protest next week.

[SnowBoardinWNY]

Piitb!!!!

[krux]

were else am i suppose to put it??? In the ear?

[Sir William]

lmao.. you are truely a nutcase krux

[krux]

I like how you didnt deny anything. Now i am hoping ryan doesn't see this.

[ZetecInside]

No dodging.

We're talking about the unatural use of the RECTUM.

Why is unnatural use of the rectum of any greater moral consequence than unnatural use of the mouth?