How much do you make in relation to your political views

[dezie]

You all know me, I am a liberal I vote for expansion of rights and limitation of corporate profits.

I will never be part of a corporation (except as a low level employee)... at best I will only ever be a small business owner.

Do I believe that people making 200 million a year should pay 35% a year in taxes when right now at 28K a year I pay something like 18%... NO I feel they should pay at least 50%...and myself objectively speaking if I made 200M a year and I had to pay 50% ya I would be pissed but instead of fighting for lowing taxes I would most likely just try to expand profits and try to make more each year.

So the real point of this thread is to make you think.

What are your political views in respect to tax rates (only, and yours more specifically) in relation to your current income and your realistic top future income.

[zxtwou2]

i believe in taxing every individual fairly. don't penalize success...success often comes from hard work, sacrifice, intelligence..things that need to be rewarded. i have felt this way since i made 18k/year living in Alaska where milk was 8 bucks a gallon....dirt ass poor. i still believe this way and make about 50k/year. and i'll definitely feel this way i finish college. i'm a prime example. i've made countless sacrifices and worked incredibly hard to get to my ultimate goal. the last 10 years have been for the most part (aside from the job at Cat a few years ago) very hard manual labor, yet in a technical skill set...which i lived below the poverty level for 4 years learning. after all this, i'll be unemployed and raising a family for 6 years while i become a pharmacist. now...once i'm making 120k/year, does that mean that i'm some evil rich bastard that owes more of my share to the government? IMO, an average mean wage to "get by" in this country should be established. say, 30,000/year for an American to feed themselves and a family, clothe them, house them, purchase their own health insurance plan, etc. basic needs, with a little wiggle room for saving for emergencies. if you do not make more than this, you are not taxed. in fact, every American's first 30k every year would be tax exempt. after this, a flat tax...every wage above that figure would be taxed evenly, as no American owes anything more than any other American just because they have made good decisions.

oh, and i'm Libertarian. give us our rights back, quit oppressing people, and quit wasting money both with wars and failing social entitlement programs. hand outs are bad, hand ups are good.

[dezie]

I agree but taxing someone who makes 250k a year and someone who makes 200m a year at different rates is not punishing them it is only fair. Tax rates shouldn't hit a ceiling (esp. not as low as 250K) they should incrementally increase exponentially. So if you make 100,000,000,000 Trillion next year you would pay a 99% tax rate and still walk away with more than anyone else on the planet....and if you complain...um fuck you.

[zxtwou2]

what makes a successful person any more responsible to pay off our unnecessarily enormous national debt than anyone else?

[powder]

I personally don't think individual tax rates are the problem. Corporate tax rates and breaks are, and the huge lack of import tax. Give benefits for exports imo, but product shipped to our shores to sell should be taxed out the ass. I'm talking a standard rate of 70%. Make it worth it to bring jobs back here. We have a trade deficit lower than this country has every had before because our government can't manage shit on our shores. The corruption runs too deep and all those corporations i'm referring to make bigger campaign donations than you, me and the rest of us common folk combined. There's no loyalty to us because of it. If you ask me, campaign donations should be illegal. Raise your own money, pay for your own campaign. There's no loopholes in that.

"Any American that is prepared to run for president should by definition, be disqualified from doing so." ~Gore Vidal

"Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those that are dumber." ~Plato

[SoCalZX2]

I make about 60k a year, as an independent. I'm registered republican, but only because I registered that way at 18. As I currently sit, I line up more libertarian than anything. I don't believe that over taxing the wealthy will magically fix anything. I think if they prudently taxed people, and actually utilized the tax money they have more efficiently, we'd be ok. But as it is, we have WAY too much wasteful spending on failed or broken social programs that pull at peoples heartstrings, so they stay. They're bleeding money from our country like an open wound on an artery, with no tourniquet. There is no real end in site, but that which bankrupts the country, even further than it is, and makes us a third world country.

[ZX2guy19]

I make about 70k a year, and I am registered as a democrat. I do agree with Matt and Chris....I think our social programs are a large reason why we are in the shit storm we are in today. I also agree that we should not tax the shit out of the rich. They are rich for a reason...they made crucial moves somewhere in their lives to get where they are at today. Why should they be punished?!

[carguy07]

I agree but taxing someone who makes 250k a year and someone who makes 200m a year at different rates is not punishing them it is only fair. Tax rates shouldn't hit a ceiling (esp. not as low as 250K) they should incrementally increase exponentially. So if you make 100,000,000,000 Trillion next year you would pay a 99% tax rate and still walk away with more than anyone else on the planet....and if you complain...um fuck you.

Your logic is trying to take yearly salary towards infinity, when it doesn't actually get anywhere close. Why would I work 8 hours a day and walk away being paid for (less than) 5 minutes of my time? Using your logic, anyone who would qualify for those levels of tax increases would simply sit at home before reaching those thresholds.

And to answer the original question, I make around 40k a year and do not affiliate with any political party.

[SoCalZX2]

I make about 70k a year, and I am registered as a democrat. I do agree with Matt and Chris....I think our social programs are a large reason why we are in the shit storm we are in today. I also agree that we should not tax the shit out of the rich. They are rich for a reason...they made crucial moves somewhere in their lives to get where they are at today. Why should they be punished?!

Sure you're a democrat? lol

[DominatingZX2]

I agree but taxing someone who makes 250k a year and someone who makes 200m a year at different rates is not punishing them it is only fair.

...And why is that fair?

I make...a lot. Between my wife and I, it's a whole lot. And our ceilings are both pretty high. We are both Republican. Do you really think that this country will turn itself around if you essentially REDUCE someone's incentive to work hard and make a better life for him/herself? The Soviet Union was like that, their people had no real personal reason to work hard; how did that work out for them?

Your argument of "oh, it'll just make them work harder" is ludicrous. Why should someone work harder just to give more of it away?

[zxtwou2]

plus, when you are bringing home less money than sending to the gov't out of your check, why would you continue to make money. it'll send the successful people out of the country, or find other ways of making that money. also, most of the wealth in this country, is already owned...not earned.

[dezie]

...And why is that fair?

I make...a lot. Between my wife and I, it's a whole lot. And our ceilings are both pretty high. We are both Republican. Do you really think that this country will turn itself around if you essentially REDUCE someone's incentive to work hard and make a better life for him/herself? The Soviet Union was like that, their people had no real personal reason to work hard; how did that work out for them?

Your argument of "oh, it'll just make them work harder" is ludicrous. Why should someone work harder just to give more of it away?

I do think that.
Do you think the republican idea of cutting corporate taxes and giving tax brakes to the wealthy will fix the economy? You can’t really think that...were you living here for the Bush years?

Let us look at some simple numbers and compare...shall we?
I make 27 grand a year...after taxes I am just above the poverty line. When you’re living paycheck to paycheck because the amount of money you earn is equal to the amount of bills you have to pay for basics (food, shelter, gas money, auto insurance...this doesn’t include internet, cable tv or anything else fun let alone savings or god for bid a fucking vacation) you notice that 18% a lot more but when you make 350K a year and pay what 35% and still walk away each year with 200k+ I guarantee if you aren’t living a Life Styles of the Rich and Famous type life style you still live a very happy and conferrable life.

How is it fair to have incremental tax increases from the bottom but then when you become ultra rich we just stop them? Sure that gives the few guys who make it to that point more reason to try to make more money but do you know what it does to the rest of us who will never make that kind of income?
It makes us jealous and angry and what happens when the majority of a country are hungry, poor, jealous and angry (at the leadership and rich aristocracy)? Revolution... like the French revolution.

You want to talk about looking at history and learning from it, learn from what happens at the other end of the spectrum too… otherwise you might as well be an ostrich with its head in the sand.

What we need is a fair balanced system for taxing where the government can make more revenue from corporations, from the ultra rich to run those corporations, all the way down to us little guys...who buy the shit that the massive corporations build and sell to us thus driving the economy.

Want to know why the economy is at a stand still? It IS NOT because the rich are paying toooooo much in taxes and can’t afford to buy new cars, tvs ect. Its because the average to poor person isn’t making enough to buy these things.
Do you know that I work 40 hours a week, and go to school full time, and I haven’t had a vacation in 5 years, I haven’t bought anything fun for myself in that same time frame, I cant afford to even buy my fiancee an engagement ring because I do not make enough money to put anyway money to save up for it.

[carguy07]

Let us look at some simple numbers and compare...shall we?
I make 27 grand a year...after taxes I am just above the poverty line. When you’re living paycheck to paycheck because the amount of money you earn is equal to the amount of bills you have to pay for basics (food, shelter, gas money, auto insurance...this doesn’t include internet, cable tv or anything else fun let alone savings or god for bid a fucking vacation) you notice that 18% a lot more but when you make 350K a year and pay what 35% and still walk away each year with 200k+ I guarantee if you aren’t living a Life Styles of the Rich and Famous type life style you still live a very happy and conferrable life.


I don't feel like going through the entire post, but I do have a question about this part. The poverty level is $10,890. Please explain how you lose 60% of your paycheck to get to a number that low. FICA takes 6.75%, income tax would roughly take out 13.5% before any deductions. State income I can't speak on for your state, but I can't see any state taking more than the federal govt.

For argument's sake, let's use 13.5% for state tax and federal. That get's your total deductions to 33.75%. Where doe the other 26% come from?

[carguy07]

double post.

[DominatingZX2]

I do think that.
Do you think the republican idea of cutting corporate taxes and giving tax brakes to the wealthy will fix the economy? You can’t really think that...were you living here for the Bush years?

I was. I did quite well for myself during the Bush years. And it wasn't that I was "wealthy" to begin with, I started my career in 2001 making 45K a year.

I don't necessarily think that corporate tax breaks are the solution to the economy's issues, nor tax breaks for the wealthy. Never said that. I think that if this country really wants to turn itself around, it needs to take a hard look at its entitlement programs. We have created a generation that does not need to work to live. THAT is the problem. But you seem to think that solution is to take MORE money away from the people who have worked their asses off and became successful.




Do you know that I work 40 hours a week, and go to school full time, and I haven’t had a vacation in 5 years, I haven’t bought anything fun for myself in that same time frame, I cant afford to even buy my fiancee an engagement ring because I do not make enough money to put anyway money to save up for it.

Boo fucking hoo. Make better life decisions going forward. In almost every thread you start, you make it sound like you live your life on some higher intellectual plane than the rest of us. Maybe your choices have consequences?

[dareall]

I make $27,001 a year and just happen to be able to live part of the American dream. To buy my wife an engagement ring, I had to work 3 jobs. To afford a vacation (honeymoon), I had to work those 3 jobs for months. While I was going to school, I again had to work three jobs. To buy my house I had to sell some items I did not wish to as well as work 2 full-time jobs.................... Do I think the people making 10X the amount I do should be taxed at a higher rate? No. Those people have just made a better set of circumstances for themselves than what you are experiencing. Find out a way to increase you level of income to the taxable level you mention then get back to us to let us know how fair it is :shrug:

if you do ever get to that level and are not being taxed what you suggest with your OP, you can donate the amount equal to that rate to those of us here who want to help you make your point, starting with me :p

[rosieposie]

I made 50k a year before the company went bottoms up and I am registered as a republican but I vote for who ever I believe will do the best job

[Midwestzx2]

i believe in taxing every individual fairly. don't penalize success...success often comes from hard work, sacrifice, intelligence..things that need to be rewarded. i have felt this way since i made 18k/year living in Alaska where milk was 8 bucks a gallon....dirt ass poor. i still believe this way and make about 50k/year. and i'll definitely feel this way i finish college. i'm a prime example. i've made countless sacrifices and worked incredibly hard to get to my ultimate goal. the last 10 years have been for the most part (aside from the job at Cat a few years ago) very hard manual labor, yet in a technical skill set...which i lived below the poverty level for 4 years learning. after all this, i'll be unemployed and raising a family for 6 years while i become a pharmacist. now...once i'm making 120k/year, does that mean that i'm some evil rich bastard that owes more of my share to the government? IMO, an average mean wage to "get by" in this country should be established. say, 30,000/year for an American to feed themselves and a family, clothe them, house them, purchase their own health insurance plan, etc. basic needs, with a little wiggle room for saving for emergencies. if you do not make more than this, you are not taxed. in fact, every American's first 30k every year would be tax exempt. after this, a flat tax...every wage above that figure would be taxed evenly, as no American owes anything more than any other American just because they have made good decisions.

oh, and i'm Libertarian. give us our rights back, quit oppressing people, and quit wasting money both with wars and failing social entitlement programs. hand outs are bad, hand ups are good.

I agree 110% Tim. I make approx 35k a year, and my fiance should make about 27k this year. We have at one point lived on 14k for one year.
WHen you tax the people who make jobs available too highly, it just simply is not possible to expand and make more jobs to get more people working.

ANYTHING above 30-35% i think is absolutely ABSURD!

[DominatingZX2]

BTW: I'd also like to point out that in the thread you started on illegal immigration (go look, it's still on page 1), you open by saying you consider yourself Libertarian in your fiscal views. This idea you're proposing is completely contradictory to what that party stands for. So, you've either changed your mind since then or really don't know what you believe in.

[dareall]

lol, pwned

[carguy07]

BTW: I'd also like to point out that in the thread you started on illegal immigration (go look, it's still on page 1), you open by saying you consider yourself Libertarian in your fiscal views. This idea you're proposing is completely contradictory to what that party stands for. So, you've either changed your mind since then or really don't know what you believe in.

I love reading your posts. No homo.

[dezie]

The poverty level is $10,890. Please explain how you lose 60% of your paycheck to get to a number that low.

Ive been under the impression the poverty level was 21k. If I’ve been mistaken then my bad. The poverty level being at 10k doesn’t change anything in relation to how much I make, how much my bills are, or my views on taxes.



I don't necessarily think that corporate tax breaks are the solution to the economy's issues, nor tax breaks for the wealthy. Never said that. I think that if this country really wants to turn itself around, it needs to take a hard look at its entitlement programs. We have created a generation that does not need to work to live. THAT is the problem. But you seem to think that solution is to take MORE money away from the people who have worked their asses off and became successful.

First can we agree that not every single person in that tax bracket worked their asses off to make their wealth?






Boo fucking hoo. Make better life decisions going forward. In almost every thread you start, you make it sound like you live your life on some higher intellectual plane than the rest of us. Maybe your choices have consequences?

I take full responsibility for where I am in life, I am also (aside from not being able to put money away, or take a week off) pretty content with where I am career wise. School will be done soon enough and when it is things will get easier...but that doesn't mean things aren’t tough right now nor does it mean I don’t think it should be a little easier. I know of people raising families on my income and I can not imagine how it is done. Also Ive had no luck locating a 2nd job that would work with me about scheduling around school and my other job which paid more than any of the other jobs offered so though not trying to pass the buck just explain why I'm not working two jobs though I spend every other Thursday job hunting.

That all said my personal view of money is definitely a love hate thing and I would really like to live in a society where it wasn’t there and the acquisition of it wasn’t the priority of everyone around me. Let me try to explain something because you all seem to think that I think I’m better or intellectually superior to others (there are cases in life where that’s true but I’m not making any presumptions with the people of this forum). I have an idea of how an ideal human should act; this ideal is the driving force in many if not most of the actions of my daily life. The ideal human is smart which to me means curious of the world around them and always asks questions to learn more, they are not greedy, are happy to share what they have (if they can, sometimes it is just not possible), they try to have as little negative impact on the environment as possible in our society of suburbia that can be kind of hard, they should work hard for what they need/want but don’t take anything into excess(this includes desire for wealth, how much they eat, what drugs they take illegal or otherwise, sexual appetites pretty much everything), and finally they should do no harm nor make decisions that could directly result in harm to other people, animals and again the environment around them (there are cases where all you can do is minimize the likelihood of harm or severity of harm)

Now I live my life trying to hold up these moral guide lines and when it comes to money, income and my idea of taxes well it throws me into a weird place. I do label myself a libertarian, however, they are not a perfect fit for me in fact no political party is a perfect fit for me (so not really pwned), as well as the fact that sometimes new information is brought to the table and after reviewing said new information sometimes my view on a subject changes, I used to be pro amnesty for illegal immigrants I no longer am... its ok to change your mind, its proof that its working.

I’m not suggesting that we reset to the days when the top income rate was 99% that’s just unfair in the opposite direction.
It seems to me that the majority here seem to think that 30-35% is the highest taxes should go, I can concede that point Id suggest the highest it should go is 45% for people at the very very top, but 35% for arguments sake.

My suggestion or opinion is that the tax brackets be revamped and movable with time and inflation.
Start with people making 0 to 10k and just like right now don’t charge taxes but as a condition of being on the welfare and Medicare systems they will clearly use force them to attend school and require grade point requirements and limit their usage of the program to 4 years for a 2 year program and 8 years for a 4 year program. After that we cut the line and if and your family can’t make it you need to look at the churches and other non profit programs to help you.

Then after that for every 10k you make more a year you pay an extra 5% more in taxes with the base being 5% at 10,001. Maybe at the 30 or 40K a year mark the rate of increase decreases but it would continue to rise till at say 400m you reach the 35% tax rate... I am not throwing out firm numbers here just trying to convey an idea of a system that I think would be better. Given more time I bet I could hammer out those finer points. I should note that the idea relies heavily on the elimination of tax deductions. Which would suck for me but would make the system as a whole more fair.
Didn't Warren Buffet say at some point his secretary paid more taxes than he did and that it was a messed up situation?
Yes he did...heres the link
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece

When my parents were making enough to be taxed at the 35% rate, I remember my dad (who is closer to that ideal then I think I ever will be) used to do his taxes not file any deductions, then donate what remained of anything over 100k to charities... hes kind of a selfless minimalist and has always told me the family never needed more than 100k a year to live on, it paid the mortgage, bought cloths food, a vacation every year and put money into the savings. Personally I think if more people were like him we wouldn't even be in this problem to begin with.
Also paying his taxes never stopped him from working hard or from growing his business and always said he'd gladly pay more if the government ask for it.

I don’t see why everyone thinks paying a fair percentage of your income to taxes is punishment...do you look at the taxes you pay now as punishment? I don’t.
Right now if you make 50k a year you pay 15% income tax but if you double your yearly income your tax rate only increases to 25% which is a 60% increase. Now if you make 380k a year you pay 39.6% if the next year you double you income your tax rate stays the same so the relation of your old income to your new one decreases, which is great if your only goal is to make more and more money but that isn’t fair to everyone else who has to deal with higher percentages as they increase their income its also not fair to the government who clearly needs the income to pay for everything they do. If anything the system we have now discourages the middle class from trying to work hard and make more money (unless it is by leaps and bounds)and encourage the upper and super upper class to find new ways of swindling the lower and middle classes for more income (the subprime mortgage crisis sound familiar?)

Besides taxes pay for everything the government provides that we all enjoy like libraries, police, EMTs, county hospitals, public schools, firemen, public roads. We all equally use or have access to these services and should all pay equally (equally meaning fair amount not suggesting a flat rate for taxes).
If anything even if we don’t touch the tax system we should massively cut spending on things like wars, keeping 50K troops stationed in countries for no reason, subsidizing farmers to over produce, wasteful spending in the quote unquote entitlement programs and revamp them so they are efficient have stricter guide lines for admission and use. And as for all the army people who would be put out of work? Well we could put them to work fixing our countries infrastructure.
I don’t know about the rest of you but I thought this was America and I thought we were the best, but how can we be the best when we have levies failing, bridges falling part as people drive over them, streets with holes so big in them they pop your tire and break your rim and a public school system the rest of the world looks at as a joke? That last was a bit of a tangent I know...my bad.

[DominatingZX2]

Alright, now that was a much better, more articulate response.

The part that I think you're missing is this: regardless of the percentage you assign to it, the wealthy DO pay more in taxes. The example you referenced about someone making $380K vs. $760K and having to pay the same rate...still doesn't change the fact that guy went from paying $150K in taxes to $300K. At what point do you draw the line? The guy earned it, why should the government have the right to take more of it?

You are right, taxes pay for all of the government services we use. So, let me ask you this: does the guy in the top tax bracket use MORE government than someone who pays no taxes? Does he require more national defense? Does he use the roads more? Does he send more children through our public school system? If the answer to these questions is mostly no, then why should he be required to pay a higher percentage of his income to support them? Aside from "because he can afford it," why?

It really comes down to this: are you a proponent of more or less government? Do you really think the government can solve most of our problems? Here, I'll answer that for you: I don't. I think it's up to us, the citizens. But if you take more taxes away from the top, you're putting more pressure on the government and less on the people. We're fucking doomed if that's the case. I work for a defense contractor, the federal government is the least efficient organization I have ever dealt with.

You started this discussion as a proposal of a way to trim the deficit and national debt. Let me propose this: incentivize corporations to create GOOD jobs in this country. I'm not talking about giving Wal Mart a break to open a store and hire a bunch of cashiers to sell a bunch of shit made in China. I'm talking about giving a break for a new factory to make the things they sell. This will also jump-start the supply chain (I know you hate corporations, but if you took into account how a supply chain worked, you'd realize that they drive the small business economy as well). Also, penalize the shit out of companies sending jobs overseas. Example: the Kobalt hand tools sold at Lowes are now made in China or Taiwan and not the US. If you noticed their sales last month, that's why, they were cleaning inventory of US-made stuff for imports. This is the problem.

Of course, my proposal would destroy the Chinese economy and possibly lead to war. But it's an idea. :)

[zxtwou2]

why should police, schools, fire, etc come out of our income taxes? why would those services cost a successful person more just because of their income? things like that should be handled by local and state governments...not federal. the federal government is waaaaay beyond what it was ever intended to do. state sovereignty was supposed to reign supreme and allow the people who live by the laws the opportunity to shape and mold those laws. the way municipal and school, etc is typically done (and rightfully so IMO) is from local sales tax and property taxes. this taxes spending, not earning. considering most of the wealth in this country is already owned, not earned...it is the only way to get the money from "those evil rich bastards at the top 1%".

[dezie]

DominatingZX2

First of all fuck the Chinese, as far as economies go I could care less if any other besides ours goes into the tanker (I said I didn’t live up to my ideal).

My point is that the burden felt by everyone should feel the same amount...if that means on one hand we increase taxes on the wealthy and keep everything else the same as it is...or we revamp the tax system so the lower and middle classes pay less and the rich pay the same and we stop invading countries and revamp the welfare system so be it, I really don’t care one way or the other the politicians in DC can decide to do it (haha ya right)...all I care about is that I can put money in savings so Liz and I can retire at 60(unlike my parents who lost nearly everything when the stock market had its little aneurism), raise one adopted and one birthed (she really wants her own kid, I would rather adopt two) kid and send them to college (dude it would be awesome if they were accepted to Cornell like I was but they actually go) that’s all I care about. At any income level that is... that is all I want out of life... if I make 200m a year because my restaurant idea worked and I was able to expand and open franchises world wide or it failed and I work for Denny’s as a store manager or hell even as a server. I do not know what the rest of you want out of life but that is all I want...that and to be remembered for being a good person who sacrificed for those around him and made their lives better by extension of his actions…also to be only the 2nd man in history to be buried in honey…but that’s a subject for a lighter thread.

As a little aside I think we should as DominatingZX2 suggested make it so companies are more inclined to deal directly with us...what if we raised tariffs, made it so any company who’s workforce was say over 90% employed over seas paid more... make it not cost effective for them to outsource, there by bringing production back to the US and bring back our middle class.

This country can not survive on a strict tax and spend agenda of the liberals nor a spend and spend and hope the market levels everything agenda of the conservatives (were talking fiscal issues here, the conserves approach to gays, drugs and social programs leave sooooooooo fucking much to be desired it makes Jesus and Buddha cry and vomit at the same time.)

[Midwestzx2]

Why worry about all of it anyway, china will own us in 20 years the way it is.

[JonsZX2SR]

I agree but taxing someone who makes 250k a year and someone who makes 200m a year at different rates is not punishing them it is only fair. Tax rates shouldn't hit a ceiling (esp. not as low as 250K) they should incrementally increase exponentially. So if you make 100,000,000,000 Trillion next year you would pay a 99% tax rate and still walk away with more than anyone else on the planet....and if you complain...um fuck you.

Actually I think taxes should be caped at a cumulative 50% at the top end. A person should be able to keep $1 for every $1 they pay in taxes ...and they will be paying a lot in taxes so no one should complain.

At the bottom end, above some very low limit there should also be a minimum tax. Say above a minimum of $6000, the tax rate should be $1 per 1000. So a person with $16K in taxable income, would pay $10. (Nominal rate of 0.0625%) From there the taxes would increase gradually and continuously to the normal rates, then to the multi-millionaires rate of 50%

The reason I propose this is two-fold, first no one with any significant income would get off paying taxes, in particular those with significant incomes. Second, about 35% taxpayers at the low end don't pay taxes and this would be viewed as a participatory tax, while at the same time be a basis to close tax loopholes.

Finally, no one should get refunds greater than what they put in, period end of story, etc. If you don't pay taxes, don't expect a refund no matter what cockamamy scheme congress thinks up.

[JonsZX2SR]

Why worry about all of it anyway, china will own us in 20 years the way it is.

If you want to hedge your dollars against inflation, invest in (Indian) rupees or Indian investments. Chinese RMB are too volatile and too gov't controlled, but I believe the Indian economy will show a steady rate of growth against the US over the next 20 years.

[fusew3rks]

Why worry about all of it anyway, china will own us in 20 years the way it is.

They pretty much already do. China is the biggest holder of our debt. All China has to do is dump the dollar and shit will hit the fan here.

Japan has already started to dump to recover from what I like to call weather warfare, created by us. Talk about a hot opinion.

[fusew3rks]

Income tax is ILLEGAL. If y'all think the income tax pays for streets, schools, etc...you're surely wrong. Income tax only pays the interest on the debt to the FED reserve. And I can't believe we're okay with having to borrow our own money with interest. Its called Economic slavery. And this fiat money ain't worth shit. That's why we're seeing inflation, maybe hyper inflation, soon.

[scott367]

First off taxing corporations is stupid. For corporations taxes are a cost of doing business just like labor, materials ect., taxing them only adds to the cost of the products and services and ends up as a hidden tax on consumers.

Second unless you inherit your money or found it on the sidewalk, you make your money by providing a service or good to someone else who is willing to pay for it. The more goods and services you provide the more money you make. People that make alot of money are contributing to society more and are providing goods and services to more people than someone who makes less. To me it seems stupid to penalize/tax these people more.

P.S. I am Libertarian and want very little from my government other than to protect me from others.

[fusew3rks]

First off taxing corporations is stupid. For corporations taxes are a cost of doing business just like labor, materials ect., taxing them only adds to the cost of the products and services and ends up as a hidden tax on consumers.

Second unless you inherit your money or found it on the sidewalk, you make your money by providing a service or good to someone else who is willing to pay for it. The more goods and services you provide the more money you make. People that make alot of money are contributing to society more and are providing goods and services to more people than someone who makes less. To me it seems stupid to penalize/tax these people more.

P.S. I am Libertarian and want very little from my government other than to protect me from others.

Protect you from others? That's what the 2nd amendment is for, libertarian. Real liberty is being able to protect yourself.

[zxtwou2]

Protect you from others? That's what the 2nd amendment is for, libertarian. Real liberty is being able to protect yourself.

from other governments, durrr. national security and economic stability is and always has been the only necessary functions of the government. all this extra crap was never forseen when the government was established.

[fusew3rks]

Read this and it made me chuckle...cause its sad but true. Hopefully not.

A note of appreciation from the rich.

Lets be honest: you'll never win the lottery.

On the other hand, the chances are pretty good that you'll slave away at some miserable job the rest of your life. That's because you were in all likelihood born into the wrong social class. Let's face it — you're a member of the working caste. Sorry!

As a result, you don't have the education, upbringing, connections, manners, appearance, and good taste to ever become one of us. In fact, you'd probably need a book the size of the yellow pages to list all the unfair advantages we have over you. That's why we're so relieved to know that you stil continue to believe all those silly fairy tales about "justice" and"equal opportunity" in America.

Of course, in a hierarchical social system like ours, there's never been much room at the top to begin with. Besides, it's already occupied by us — and we like it up here so much that we intend to keep it that way. But at least there's usually someone lower in the social hierarchy you can feel superior to and kick in the teeth once in a while. Even a lowly dishwasher can easily find some poor slob further down in the pecking order to sneer and spit at. So be thankful for migrant workers, prostitutes, and homeless street people.

Always remember that if everyone like you were economically secure and socially privileged like us, there would be no one left to fill all those boring, dangerous, low- paid jobs in our economy. And no one to fight our wars for us, or blindly follow orders in our totalitarian corporate institutions. And certainly no one to meekly go to their grave without having lived a full and creative life. So please, keep up the good work!

You also probably don't have the same greedy, compulsive drive to possess wealth, power, and prestige that we have. And even though you may sincerely want to change the way you live, you're also afraid of the very change you desire, thus keeping you and others like you in a nervous state of limbo. So you go through life mechanically playing your assigned social role, terrified what others would think should you ever dare to "break out of the mold."

Naturally, we try to play you off against each other whenever it suits our purposes: high-waged workers against low-waged, unionized against non-unionized, Black against White, male against female, American workers against Japanese against Mexican against.... We continually push your wages down by invoking "foreign competition," "the law of supply and demand," "national security," or "the bloated federal deficit." We throw you on the unemployed scrap heap if you step out of line or jeopardize our profits. And to give you an occasional break from the monotony of our daily economic blackmail, we allow you to participate in our stage-managed electoral shell games, better known to you ordinary folks as "elections." Happily, you haven't a clue as to what's really happening — instead, you blame "Aliens," "Tree-hugging what's Environmentalists," "Niggers," "Jews," Welfare Queens," and countless others for your troubled situation.

We're also very pleased that many of you still embrace the "work ethic," even though most jobs in our economy degrade the environment, undermine your physical and emotional health, and basically suck your one and only life right out of you. We obviously don't know much about work, but we're sure glad you do!

Of course, life could be different. Society could be intelligently organized to meet the real needs of the general population. You and others like you could collectively fight to free yourselves from our domination. But you don't know that. In fact, imagine that another way of life is possible. And that's probably the greatest, most significant achievement of our system — robbing you of your imagination, your creativity, your ability to think and act for yourself.

So we'd truly like to thank you from the bottom of our heartless hearts. Your loyal sacrifice makes possible our corrupt luxury; your work makes our system work. Thanks so much for "knowing your place" — without even knowing it.

[JonsZX2SR]

Income tax is ILLEGAL.

Go figure where you got this idea.

If you knew your constitutional law, the federal income tax is legal by the 16th amendment. It would take another constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th amendment, just as the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment (prohobition.)

Constitutional amendments can't be declared illegal based on someone's opinion, in particular, a drummer/cook from Texas.

Instead of wasting your time on conspiracy theories, you might take the time to get a legal education, then in 30-40 years on the odd chance you were nominated and ratified as a member of the SCOTUS your opinion on this matter might mean something.

Until then, LOL

[fusew3rks]

So me the law requiring payment of an unapportioned direct tax, such as the federal income tax, on the labor of American workers?

Don't worry, I'll wait.



The income tax does not meet either criteria of Constitutionally legal taxation in America, that is direct apportioned tax or indirect uniform tax. The IRS claims that the 16th Amendment allowed for a third form of taxation, however, the supreme court ruling on the amendment states that it allows for no new forms of taxation. More supreme court cases in the same period confirm the same conclusion. The 16th Amendment did not allow the Federa Government to levy a new tax, thus there is no Constitutional basis for the income tax.

[fusew3rks]

Constitutional amendments can't be declared illegal based on someone's opinion, in particular, a drummer/cook from Texas.

You forgot adult entertainment.

[dezie]

And I can't believe we're okay with having to borrow our own money with interest.

You know this bit is actually true, the fed loans money to our government at an interested rate so even as we receive new money it is already in debt (the country) which means we can never really get out from under the fed reserve or the national debt. Also not having a system like this is part of what the founders had in mind, which is why we didn't have one for what around 150 years. I mean it is not a conspiracy theory it is true a true fact...and its one that I have just learned to accept, no one is going to talk about it (on the national stage) no ones gonna fight it... we will continue to be (figuratively) raped by the federal reserve until humanity kills itself or china owns America...which ever happens first.

[Midwestzx2]

So much stupid in here...

[guthepenguin]

So much stupid in here...

I concur.

[JonsZX2SR]

So me the law requiring payment of an unapportioned direct tax, such as the federal income tax, on the labor of American workers?

It's not a law, it is a ratified constitutional amendment. As such it can't be illegal or unconstitutional. What part of that don't you understand ?

[zxtwou2]

if paying your taxes is illegal...how come Al Capone was nabbed on tax evasion of all things?

[fusew3rks]

It's not a law, it is a ratified constitutional amendment. As such it can't be illegal or unconstitutional. What part of that don't you understand ?

Oh, you mean the amendment that wasn't properly ratified?

[fusew3rks]

if paying your taxes is illegal...how come Al Capone was nabbed on tax evasion of all things?

Fear is the best motivator.

[JonsZX2SR]

Oh, you mean the amendment that wasn't properly ratified?

You made that up. Do you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation ?

[powder]

You made that up. Do you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation ?

Is that rhetorical? Looks like it to me.

[fusew3rks]

You made that up. Do you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation ?

Oh, I did? How can you be so sure?

For someone of your intellectual prowess, john, you should already know that in order for the federal government to collect anything from you, they must have a law. The 16th amendment is what they tax on. There's 17,000 certified, notarized documents that prove that not one state out of the 48 has ratified the law. They have all rejected it!

There's more, too.

[fusew3rks]

Is that rhetorical? Looks like it to me.

Look! It's intelligence!

[Midwestzx2]

Sooo stop paying your taxes and we'll see who was truly right..

[fusew3rks]

Well, there are people out there who haven't paid/filed in over 15 + years. They just so happen to be former IRS agents that resigned because of it. Go figure. I can give some names, if you'd like?

[zxtwou2]

Well, there are people out there who haven't paid/filed in over 15 + years. They just so happen to be former IRS agents that resigned because of it. Go figure. I can give some names, if you'd like?

if you don't get audited, you don't get caught. imagine that.

[rosieposie]

if you don't get audited, you don't get caught. imagine that.

remember its legal till you get caught!

[j0hnZ]

I like taxing corporations, it's one of the only reasons they donate to charity...it might build some good reputation too but it's motivated by money. Then again charities are just bad right? You never know where that money goes...amirightfusewerks? How do you know we aren't paying to have conspiracies covered up, you should definitely stop paying your taxes Fusewerks. I bet our tax dollars paid for that fence to be done by the lowest bidders, and then they put it in backwards(who would have thought?).

I like jon's idea the best, just don't pay taxes all year and then pay in what you owe. I mean they can't get this guestimation system we have now to work right, when you claim on your W-4 and then hope to get as much money as you can or not get as much taken out at the end. Quit making things out to be a punishment for success, I mean there are many ways to think about the situation. How about, the government provided you a safe-ish place to make your money. So the more you make the more successful both of you become.

[moorecomp]

Do I believe that people making 200 million a year should pay 35% a year in taxes when right now at 28K a year I pay something like 18%...

Speaking as someone who lives in the same state as you, my salary is $29,000/year. I am married, 3 kids, house payment, car payment. I am a Christian, conservative, republican. Just because 18% is taken out of your check does not mean you pay 18% in federal taxes. At your income level, I would bet you end up paying close to 0% in federal income tax due to the refund you get at tax time. Almost all low income earners are a net loss as far as taxes go; they get more back than they pay in (me included). So the guy paying his 35% on $200 million is actually paying our way.

[zxtwou2]

even at 45k/year i just about break even every year. after my return, i've paid in only 2-3000 when all's said and done. now when after a decade of hard labor and another half decade of hard studying and no income, i'll probably be paying a ton more around the 100k mark for income.

[j0hnZ]

even at 45k/year i just about break even every year. after my return, i've paid in only 2-3000 when all's said and done. now when after a decade of hard labor and another half decade of hard studying and no income, i'll probably be paying a ton more around the 100k mark for income.

Before I got laid off I was paying about 5k, naturally I claimed 1 or so and then I got money back at the end of the year because I overpaid.

[fusew3rks]

The original 16th amendment was about taxing corporate gains, not personal gains. I never trusted charities like the red cross because when charities ask you to make a donation, it pays for their administration fees. The people who really need it will never see it. All they're doing is exploiting a crisis for money. Pretty sad, I know.

[j0hnZ]

The original 16th amendment was about taxing corporate gains, not personal gains. I never trusted charities like the red cross because when charities ask you to make a donation, it pays for their administration fees. The people who really need it will never see it. All they're doing is exploiting a crisis for money. Pretty sad, I know.

I'm sure they won't with people like you around.

http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/human-services/american-red-cross-in-washington-dc-679

6% done by an independent audit by the Better Business Bureau is what is spend on administration. You are pretty sad, I know. Go ahead pick on something that doesn't matter, I know you will. I'm a profit just like in the bible, ready to manipulate whatever you say against you.

[SoCalZX2]

I'm sure they won't with people like you around.

http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/human-services/american-red-cross-in-washington-dc-679

6% done by an independent audit by the Better Business Bureau is what is spend on administration. You are pretty sad, I know. Go ahead pick on something that doesn't matter, I know you will. I'm a profit just like in the bible, ready to manipulate whatever you say against you.

I'm assuming that was a play on words? :p

[fusew3rks]

I'm sure they won't with people like you around.

http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/human-services/american-red-cross-in-washington-dc-679

6% done by an independent audit by the Better Business Bureau is what is spend on administration. You are pretty sad, I know. Go ahead pick on something that doesn't matter, I know you will. I'm a profit just like in the bible, ready to manipulate whatever you say against you.

I'm glad to see you believe that. Get a life, do some research, and think for yourself.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/09/25/151753/-LAT-expos%C3%A9:-The-Red-Cross-money-pitThe-TRUTH-at-last!!!

LA times story. Read on.

The American Red Cross has had its highly buffed reputation sullied by the disparity between its herculean efforts at fundraising after disasters such as the 9/11 attacks and the 1989 San Francisco Bay earthquake and the actual amount of aid it gave to victims of those disasters. ¿In fact, that disparity - unknown to most trusting Americans- is scandalously huge and is long overdue for wide exposure at last.
Its so bad that "the management of Red Cross operations in the Katrina areas has often been haphazard and counterproductive, to the point that the CEO of DeKalb County, Georgia asked the ARC to LEAVE."

Something was going on that they told them to leave. Interesting.

And let me guess, you're going to say something idiotic that I'm going to have to retort to. I'm not worried, though.

[fusew3rks]

And for the derailment.

[j0hnZ]

I'm glad to see you believe that. Get a life, do some research, and think for yourself.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/09/25/151753/-LAT-expos%C3%A9:-The-Red-Cross-money-pitThe-TRUTH-at-last!!!

LA times story. Read on.

The American Red Cross has had its highly buffed reputation sullied by the disparity between its herculean efforts at fundraising after disasters such as the 9/11 attacks and the 1989 San Francisco Bay earthquake and the actual amount of aid it gave to victims of those disasters. ¿In fact, that disparity - unknown to most trusting Americans- is scandalously huge and is long overdue for wide exposure at last.
Its so bad that "the management of Red Cross operations in the Katrina areas has often been haphazard and counterproductive, to the point that the CEO of DeKalb County, Georgia asked the ARC to LEAVE."

Something was going on that they told them to leave. Interesting.

And let me guess, you're going to say something idiotic that I'm going to have to retort to. I'm not worried, though.

Coming from the guy who gets his information from conspiracy theory websites. You get your research from other people just like me, but you are high and mighty because? Oh, that's right you aren't. You get your information the same exact way through other people's websites. They feed you what you want to know and then you spew it like you came up with it.

Again you are the laughing stock here, nobody else, so nobody else is worried about getting into an argument with you. Your prophet skills are also not even remotely as good as mine. You don't have to retort to anything, that is your decision.

I see another prophecy, you are going to use someone else's imagination again to fuel another conspiracy rant.

[fusew3rks]

I guess I am prophet.

[guthepenguin]

I guess I am prophet.

I need an eye-roll counter for you.

[fusew3rks]

Meh.

Back on topic, I make 28k a year and I don't affiliate myself with any political party. But if I had to say, I would consider myself a libertarian.

[fusew3rks]

I don't make a lot and most of the time it's a struggle living check to check. But I get by. And I'm still able to give the homeless men/women on the side of the road a couple of bucks, cause that's the kind of person I am.

[zxtwou2]

Meh.

Back on topic, I make 28k a year and I don't affiliate myself with any political party. But if I had to say, I would consider myself a libertarian.

consider yourself libertarian like glen beck does, or like a true libertarian like Ron Paul does?

[fusew3rks]

Definitely Ron Paul.

[spacemanspiff]

You know that Ben Franklin quote is a fake, right?

There is no such thing as punishing success in taxation. That's just what rich people call it. It is punishing hoarding and greed. High tax brackets for the ultra-rich exist (or should exist) as a means to encourage spreading the wealth around. This isn't just because it would be nice to be making more money. There is mounds of evidence that show that the better payed the middle class is the healthier the overall economy is. When the income gap between the rich and poor becomes to great it unbalances the economy and the government by shifting too much power to too few of us. The point of our country is for the masses to decide their fate, and that is hard to accomplish with Billionaires buying laws. Also, there is no true free market without rules. So, those of you who think deregulation is somehow the cure for our economic woes, history tells us otherwise. When companies are deregulated they pollute, mistreat employees, and don't pay any taxes. This is not because they are somehow evil, but because of the free market itself. Companies will naturally gravitate toward the decisions that will make them more money, whatever the results. If corporations were moral, you could have a free market, but they ARE NOT. Never make that mistake.

I make 33k a year, and I vote democrat, until something better comes along (or they finally stand up for their ideals)

Jeff

[zxtwou2]

You know that Ben Franklin quote is a fake, right?

There is no such thing as punishing success in taxation. That's just what rich people call it. It is punishing hoarding and greed. High tax brackets for the ultra-rich exist (or should exist) as a means to encourage spreading the wealth around. This isn't just because it would be nice to be making more money. There is mounds of evidence that show that the better payed the middle class is the healthier the overall economy is. When the income gap between the rich and poor becomes to great it unbalances the economy and the government by shifting too much power to too few of us. The point of our country is for the masses to decide their fate, and that is hard to accomplish with Billionaires buying laws. Also, there is no true free market without rules. So, those of you who think deregulation is somehow the cure for our economic woes, history tells us otherwise. When companies are deregulated they pollute, mistreat employees, and don't pay any taxes. This is not because they are somehow evil, but because of the free market itself. Companies will naturally gravitate toward the decisions that will make them more money, whatever the results. If corporations were moral, you could have a free market, but they ARE NOT. Never make that mistake.

I make 33k a year, and I vote democrat, until something better comes along (or they finally stand up for their ideals)

Jeff

how does any of that hold a candle to the fact income taxes were warned against by almost all politicians til the 1930's when it was institutionalized? we need to get rid of income taxes, and tax purchasing power on goods like the good old days before financial meltdowns occurred every few years.

[fusew3rks]

how does any of that hold a candle to the fact income taxes were warned against by almost all politicians til the 1930's when it was institutionalized? we need to get rid of income taxes, and tax purchasing power on goods like the good old days before financial meltdowns occurred every few years.

That's why it was falsely ratified.

[j0hnZ]

I don't know if I have ever answered the original post, and I don't feel like checking so here goes. My last two income tax statements have been for 0 dollars earned. I don't affiliate with any political party. I lean to the left on social issues and I don't have a stance on the spending issue.

[scott367]

[QUOTE=spacemanspiff;531979]You know that Ben Franklin quote is a fake, right?

There is no such thing as punishing success in taxation. That's just what rich people call it. It is punishing hoarding and greed. High tax brackets for the ultra-rich exist (or should exist) as a means to encourage spreading the wealth around. This isn't just because it would be nice to be making more money. There is mounds of evidence that show that the better payed the middle class is the healthier the overall economy is. When the income gap between the rich and poor becomes to great it unbalances the economy and the government by shifting too much power to too few of us. The point of our country is for the masses to decide their fate, and that is hard to accomplish with Billionaires buying laws.

Scary...very scary. I hope the masses don't decide they need my stuff some day.

[fusew3rks]

I don't know if I have ever answered the original post, and I don't feel like checking so here goes. My last two income tax statements have been for 0 dollars earned. I don't affiliate with any political party. I lean to the left on social issues and I don't have a stance on the spending issue.

You socialist, you. LOL

[spacemanspiff]

Scary...very scary. I hope the masses don't decide they need my stuff some day.



What people like you fail to grasp is that they have already come for your stuff. Wages have been flat for 30 years, but not profits, and certainly not ceo pay. That is YOUR money they are pocketing. That is YOUR raise, health care, and retirement! We have been bled dry by the rich, tax dodging elite. And you idiots buy into the propaganda that they feed you! In the world they describe, in the world you are championing, YOU ARE A SLAVE. Get that through your thick skulls. There was a reason that taxes were changed. The United States was becoming an Oligarchy, not a Republic. And now you fight to bring back the days of the robber barons and indentured servitude. Fools, nothing but blind fools.

[dezie]

I say we do eliminate income tax (like zxtwou2 said) cause that would be awesome!

But how do we pay for everything that we use income tax to pay for?

First: Pull out of every war we are engaged in.
Second: Legalize all non addictive drugs (i.e. Marijuana, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD) regulate and tax the shit out of it.
Third: Start taxing churches of all Faiths
Fourth: Legalize prostitution, regulate and tax it.
Fifth: Establish regulations that would increase corporate taxes for each percentile of a U.S. based company's employees that are based over seas.
Sixth: Make the Welfare system work, be for a limited time and make the people on it better themselves with school to be eligible for it.
Seventh: Encourage companies to build a country wide mass-transit system (high speed rails) by lowering their tax rate for how many miles they build and maintain it.
Eighth: Eliminate the ability for corporations from donating to politicians.

There you go thats a revenue and cutting system idea that could balance the budget. The last two aren't really revenue growers but they do make things better for everyone and it (the whole list) would also make it a country I would be proud of.


Heres another idea: make getting a work visa easy, then we tax the income of the people on work visas. This would encourage them to work towards citizenship because once they were they would no longer pay taxes... Not positive on the long term ramifications of that idea...but it is still an idea no one is talking about.

[zxtwou2]

can't believe i'm saying this, but i agree with dezie.

[scott367]

Replace income tax with sales tax. Everyone pays, people who buy more pay more, you can't weasel out of it, and everyone would constantly be reminded how much money the government takes at every purchase

[Gitt24_84]

I agree but disagree with Dezie. Although those things MAY balance a budget it just opens to a plethora of other issues. Our gov't is too big and bloated, it needs to be slimmed and trimmed. Budgets and such should be used what they're for and not simply blown for the sake of getting the same budget next year, should be able to go over budget. But the biggest thing is a flat tax, everyone wants fairness right. The rich want others to pay there share, the others want the rich to pay theirs. Flat rate removes all possibilities of a loophole in the system. The tax code is ridiculous. It needs to be abolished

[fusew3rks]

What people like you fail to grasp is that they have already come for your stuff. Wages have been flat for 30 years, but not profits, and certainly not ceo pay. That is YOUR money they are pocketing. That is YOUR raise, health care, and retirement! We have been bled dry by the rich, tax dodging elite. And you idiots buy into the propaganda that they feed you! In the world they describe, in the world you are championing, YOU ARE A SLAVE. Get that through your thick skulls. There was a reason that taxes were changed. The United States was becoming an Oligarchy, not a Republic. And now you fight to bring back the days of the robber barons and indentured servitude. Fools, nothing but blind fools.

Unfortunately, your words fall upon deaf ears. But I've been saying this for awhile. Economic slavery.

[fusew3rks]

I say we do eliminate income tax (like zxtwou2 said) cause that would be awesome!

But how do we pay for everything that we use income tax to pay for?

First: Pull out of every war we are engaged in.
Second: Legalize all non addictive drugs (i.e. Marijuana, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD) regulate and tax the shit out of it.
Third: Start taxing churches of all Faiths
Fourth: Legalize prostitution, regulate and tax it.
Fifth: Establish regulations that would increase corporate taxes for each percentile of a U.S. based company's employees that are based over seas.
Sixth: Make the Welfare system work, be for a limited time and make the people on it better themselves with school to be eligible for it.
Seventh: Encourage companies to build a country wide mass-transit system (high speed rails) by lowering their tax rate for how many miles they build and maintain it.
Eighth: Eliminate the ability for corporations from donating to politicians.

There you go thats a revenue and cutting system idea that could balance the budget. The last two aren't really revenue growers but they do make things better for everyone and it (the whole list) would also make it a country I would be proud of.


Heres another idea: make getting a work visa easy, then we tax the income of the people on work visas. This would encourage them to work towards citizenship because once they were they would no longer pay taxes... Not positive on the long term ramifications of that idea...but it is still an idea no one is talking about.

What are you talking about? I've been saying to eliminate income tax for the lognest time. And like I've said before, INCOME TAX ONLY PAYS FOR THE INTEREST ON THE MONEY WE BORROW FROM THE FED. And that's our hard earned money that we have to borrow back.

How bout this, eliminate NAFTA and bring jobs back to the states, instead of out sourcing overseas for cheaper labor. Ahem, wal mart.

[Gitt24_84]

What people like you fail to grasp is that they have already come for your stuff. Wages have been flat for 30 years, but not profits, and certainly not ceo pay. That is YOUR money they are pocketing. That is YOUR raise, health care, and retirement! We have been bled dry by the rich, tax dodging elite. And you idiots buy into the propaganda that they feed you! In the world they describe, in the world you are championing, YOU ARE A SLAVE. Get that through your thick skulls. There was a reason that taxes were changed. The United States was becoming an Oligarchy, not a Republic. And now you fight to bring back the days of the robber barons and indentured servitude. Fools, nothing but blind fools.

Dude, I know it's hard to believe but, just like you and I BIG CORPORATIONS and small business' want money. It's in our blood. It's how we survive. Without money you can't grow, you can't hire more jobs, you can't build new factory's, you can't build more money. Without that company wanting to make more money, none of us would have that job for that said company. Everyone wants something for free. Guess what, yeah it sucks you weren't born into wealth, oh well. Go out and try to get it, otherwise stfu. I grew up in a blue collar union family and I'm still anti-union. Why? because hard working people are stomped on and encouraged to believe that you don't need to earn anything, it should be given to you because you deserve it, because "the man" makes enough and owes it to you. Then they say well they're only rich off the backs of the workers. Tough shit, that's how it is, would we ever have everyone at the same level? No. It's impossible. Flat tax is the only way to go if you want corporations and the rich to pay their fair share. What? that's not fair that they ONLY have to pay 30% to your 20%? They should pay more?

[dezie]

Although those things MAY balance a budget it just opens to a plethora of other issues.
Oh do tell what those issues might be.




How bout this, eliminate NAFTA and bring jobs back to the states, instead of out sourcing overseas for cheaper labor. Ahem, wal mart.

Nafta doesn't make Walmart buy products built in China... or even encourage it.
That wasnt even its intent. "NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't support this agreement." -Bill Clinton
Naftas purpose is remove tariffs on imports/exports between the Us, Canada and Mexico, making trade easier between the 3 of us...the idea was that if there weren't tariffs on imports from any of the countries American businesses could grow by selling their goods in Mexico and Canada as if they were selling them to Americans. The premise is sound but as usual greedy corporations took advantage of loops holes in the writing and made it worse for the middle class. If the countries laws were written so that an American based company paid substantially more income tax for having their workforce over seas or Mexico, so much so that it would be less costly to employee American workers then we could see Nafta function the way it was intended.

The real issue is we allow major corporations to move manufacturing jobs over seas to be produced at lower costs because labor is cheap in the 3rd world then sell it back to us customers at greatly inflated rates and they recoup all the profits. They cut American middle class jobs and some how expect the American middle class to keep buying. It is the governments job to protect its citizens from all dangers both foreign and domestic and right now our biggest danger comes from the greedy money hungry corporations run by the elite upper class.

[Gitt24_84]

I say we do eliminate income tax (like zxtwou2 said) cause that would be awesome!

But how do we pay for everything that we use income tax to pay for?

First: Pull out of every war we are engaged in. I agree if done smart
Second: Legalize all non addictive drugs (i.e. Marijuana, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD) regulate and tax the shit out of it. Open wide up for corruption. Most people do not want people doing drugs legally, plus we already have enough idiots killing themselves and mostly others with Alcohol. Now you're talking LSD??
Third: Start taxing churches of all Faiths This would be possible with your "MAIN" churches like Catholics, but nearly impossible with smaller non and undenominationalists, also what about seperation of church and state? Gov't should be as far away from religion as possible except for the freedom to congregate
Fourth: Legalize prostitution, regulate and tax it. Honestly how are you going to track that? I'm all for people doing what they want with their own bodies as long as it doesn't affect others. Taxing someone because they're selling a natural animal instinct?
Fifth: Establish regulations that would increase corporate taxes for each percentile of a U.S. based company's employees that are based over seas. Don't tax the corporation based on employees, just employee simple and fair import tariff's that equal that of competitorship in the US
Sixth: Make the Welfare system work, be for a limited time and make the people on it better themselves with school to be eligible for it. 100% agree
Seventh: Encourage companies to build a country wide mass-transit system (high speed rails) by lowering their tax rate for how many miles they build and maintain it. Based on your already existing logic this is a bad idea because the companies will abandon it or cut funding leaving other companies to pick up the slack or inevitably the govt will feel obligated to bail it out
Eighth: Eliminate the ability for corporations from donating to politicians. 100% agree



See my response in BOLD

[dezie]

Second: Legalize all non addictive drugs (i.e. Marijuana, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD) regulate and tax the shit out of it. Open wide up for corruption. Most people do not want people doing drugs legally, plus we already have enough idiots killing themselves and mostly others with Alcohol. Now you're talking LSD??

First of all it is your right as a human being to kill yourself anyway you wish. Do you want to ban Alcohol and Cigarettes too? If you legalize it and regulate it like you do the production of Alcohol not only would the drugs be safer there would be a level of quality you can’t find out side of cannabis in the illegal market. Let the market dictate what drugs people will use… as well, to buy say LSD I would (as a buyer for example) have to register as a user, then let businesses decided if they want to hire people who use. The people, companies and the market will balance out use. In addition DWI would include all the aforementioned drugs, in fact make the laws stiffer. Some of your fears here are understandable but completely unnecessary. I have used LSD, MDMA and as well as a card carrying legal user of Medical Cannabis and I can tell you as a responsible user I am not now or have I ever been addicted, driven under the influence or hurt anyone but my wallet while under the influence. Though I have seen the carpet turn into a pretty moving lace, danced the night away (with my DD there) and ate more than my fair share of Cheetos and burgers, and am no worse for ware for any of it.

The real problem with any drug be it Alcohol or MDMA is people abusing it, and that comes from your parents. I am a strong believer in teaching your children about moderation and responsible use. I have been drinking since I was 13 years old with the consent of my parents who let me have a glass of wine with dinner, they taught me the value of a good wine and how it matches to a food. They taught me that Alcohol isn't something you abuse, you enjoy and savor it. As I grew up and my friends wanted to go to parties and get wasted I found no joy in it...there was no excitement...by the time I was 21 and I had lost 2 classmates from HS to Alcohol poisoning I was a regular user of it and still am, I don't think a night goes by without a beer or a couple glasses of my home brewed meads, or even a rum and coke.

Personal responsibility and teaching children from an early age that these things are to be used in moderation for enjoyment by adults in safe environments will do far greater good for our societies problems with addiction than banning it ever has.



Third: Start taxing churches of all Faiths This would be possible with your "MAIN" churches like Catholics, but nearly impossible with smaller non and undenominationalists, also what about seperation of church and state? Gov't should be as far away from religion as possible except for the freedom to congregate

Any building or organization registered with the government as a church should be taxed as a business. I agree the government should but as I see it right now it has far too much religion in it. Legalize gay marriage, stop the abortion arguments, stop teaching intelligent design in the class rooms of public schools and take under god off our money and I will reconsider my position of taxing the churches.

Fourth: Legalize prostitution, regulate and tax it. Honestly how are you going to track that? I'm all for people doing what they want with their own bodies as long as it doesn't affect others. Taxing someone because they're selling a natural animal instinct?

Uh the same way you tax people who are self employed?
I managed to pay taxes when I was waiter and 99% of my income was cash, I think the hookers can figure it out too…plus now they’d be clean..er lol.

As well, the regulations to become a licensed worker you'd get regular physicals and any test positive for illegal drugs or STDs would immediately disqualify you as someone who can legally work.
So what about the girls working illegally you ask, well just like now law enforcement officers would set up stings to check for licenses just as they do for Liquor stores to see if they are carding.
Unlike now when the girls are caught it wont be a misdemeanor, the girls cant get out on bond, pay a fine and go back to work, they will be serving a mandatory sentence.


Fifth: Establish regulations that would increase corporate taxes for each percentile of a U.S. based company's employees that are based over seas. Don't tax the corporation based on employees, just employee simple and fair import tariff's that equal that of competitorship in the US.

That isn’t fair to the over sea based companies that want to sell in the us. The low tariffs encourage world wide competition. The way to save American jobs is taxing the corporations who send those jobs over seas…if that’s how they want to run their business they have to pay more to do so.


Seventh: Encourage companies to build a country wide mass-transit system (high speed rails) by lowering their tax rate for how many miles they build and maintain it. Based on your already existing logic this is a bad idea because the companies will abandon it or cut funding leaving other companies to pick up the slack or inevitably the govt will feel obligated to bail it out

How is that my logic?
This country is yearning for a stable 21st century infrastructure but the companies right now don’t see it as a priority, and the government has its financial hands tied with wars, and corp. bailouts.
Giving incentives to companies to build them and encouraging the people to use them is the only way to get them built. The companies will make them cost effective to maximize profits with out loosing sales to overly priced tickets and baggage fees (like the airline companies are seeing). Also if we as a country moved away from airlines well that would just be great for our carbon foot print and who knows maybe bowing won’t loose their employees they’ll just move them over to their new high speed rails.

[j0hnZ]

I say we do eliminate income tax (like zxtwou2 said) cause that would be awesome!

But how do we pay for everything that we use income tax to pay for?

First: Pull out of every war we are engaged in.
Second: Legalize all non addictive drugs (i.e. Marijuana, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD) regulate and tax the shit out of it.
Third: Start taxing churches of all Faiths
Fourth: Legalize prostitution, regulate and tax it.
Fifth: Establish regulations that would increase corporate taxes for each percentile of a U.S. based company's employees that are based over seas.
Sixth: Make the Welfare system work, be for a limited time and make the people on it better themselves with school to be eligible for it.
Seventh: Encourage companies to build a country wide mass-transit system (high speed rails) by lowering their tax rate for how many miles they build and maintain it.
Eighth: Eliminate the ability for corporations from donating to politicians.
Ninth: Encourage the companies to build a country wide wired and wireless infrastructure.

There you go thats a revenue and cutting system idea that could balance the budget. The last two aren't really revenue growers but they do make things better for everyone and it (the whole list) would also make it a country I would be proud of.


Heres another idea: make getting a work visa easy, then we tax the income of the people on work visas. This would encourage them to work towards citizenship because once they were they would no longer pay taxes... Not positive on the long term ramifications of that idea...but it is still an idea no one is talking about.

Agreed

[powder]

I make way too much money to have the political views i have.

[spacemanspiff]

Dude, I know it's hard to believe but, just like you and I BIG CORPORATIONS and small business' want money. It's in our blood. It's how we survive. Without money you can't grow, you can't hire more jobs, you can't build new factory's, you can't build more money. Without that company wanting to make more money, none of us would have that job for that said company. Everyone wants something for free. Guess what, yeah it sucks you weren't born into wealth, oh well. Go out and try to get it, otherwise stfu. I grew up in a blue collar union family and I'm still anti-union. Why? because hard working people are stomped on and encouraged to believe that you don't need to earn anything, it should be given to you because you deserve it, because "the man" makes enough and owes it to you. Then they say well they're only rich off the backs of the workers. Tough shit, that's how it is, would we ever have everyone at the same level? No. It's impossible. Flat tax is the only way to go if you want corporations and the rich to pay their fair share. What? that's not fair that they ONLY have to pay 30% to your 20%? They should pay more?

If they actually payed that 30% that would be nice. The functional tax rate for people who make over $1,000,000 a year is around 17%. That is what they really pay. All because they are rich and powerful enough to buy off politicians to give them tax breaks. 57% of US corporations pay NO TAXES AT ALL. I work my ass off for less than my parents made all because of union busting, skyrocketing medical costs, and CEO's that earn 20 times what they did in the 80's. Why do they deserve a 2000% raise when my salary has gone down for the last 5 years because all my raises are taken up by medical costs? If the minimum wage kept pace with CEO pay, it would be over $23 and hour. Get your head out of your ass. The only way for people like you and me to make it is to band together. Otherwise we are easy pickings for the ultra-rich. We make their products, sell them, advertise them, and get the smallest slice of the profits. Maybe you want America to be like China where they installed nets around worker dormitories because the people making your I-Phone were worked so hard that they were jumping. You want to let this shit happen here, and that is the saddest thing. The worst part is that this has all happened before, and you are bringing back the worst era for workers in US history. My family and yours FOUGHT for everything that you take for granted now, and you have no idea how fast it can all disappear.

[spacemanspiff]

I say we do eliminate income tax (like zxtwou2 said) cause that would be awesome!

But how do we pay for everything that we use income tax to pay for?

First: Pull out of every war we are engaged in. Great!
Second: Legalize all non addictive drugs (i.e. Marijuana, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD) regulate and tax the shit out of it. Great!
Third: Start taxing churches of all Faiths Great!
Fourth: Legalize prostitution, regulate and tax it. Great!
Fifth: Establish regulations that would increase corporate taxes for each percentile of a U.S. based company's employees that are based over seas. This would only encourage companies to relocate their headquarters overseas
Sixth: Make the Welfare system work, be for a limited time and make the people on it better themselves with school to be eligible for it. Great idea, but welfare is already much smaller than is was in the 90's and there really isn't much more money to be saved here
Seventh: Encourage companies to build a country wide mass-transit system (high speed rails) by lowering their tax rate for how many miles they build and maintain it.This is what is called a "Lighthouse Project" I.E. Something that will never be done by private companies because there ISN'T enough profit there. It can only be achieved by a massive infusion of funds from the government. There is a reason you don't see these things already, and it has nothing to do with taxes
Eighth: Eliminate the ability for corporations from donating to politicians. Campaign finance reform is needed badly.

There you go thats a revenue and cutting system idea that could balance the budget. This would not even come close to balancing the budget, don't be fooled.The last two aren't really revenue growers but they do make things better for everyone and it (the whole list) would also make it a country I would be proud of.


Heres another idea: make getting a work visa easy, then we tax the income of the people on work visas. This would encourage them to work towards citizenship because once they were they would no longer pay taxes... Not positive on the long term ramifications of that idea...but it is still an idea no one is talking about.



You know most of these are Progressive Democratic ideas right? Most of what you said is great, but you are a fool if you think that cutting out income taxes will be a good idea. A sales tax only shifts more of the cost of running our government to normal people, who buy more than rich people, therefore they would be paying more in taxes. That policy is a gimmick to try to shift even more tax burden off of the rich, who only pay .25 cents to every dollar that you and I pay in taxes.

[zxtwou2]

You know most of these are Progressive Democratic ideas right? Most of what you said is great, but you are a fool if you think that cutting out income taxes will be a good idea. A sales tax only shifts more of the cost of running our government to normal people, who buy more than rich people, therefore they would be paying more in taxes. That policy is a gimmick to try to shift even more tax burden off of the rich, who only pay .25 cents to every dollar that you and I pay in taxes.

http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf

fair tax would be good for the middle class, and tax luxuries at a much higher rate that only the ultra rich can afford to buy.

[Gitt24_84]

If they actually payed that 30% that would be nice. The functional tax rate for people who make over $1,000,000 a year is around 17%. That is what they really pay. All because they are rich and powerful enough to buy off politicians to give them tax breaks. 57% of US corporations pay NO TAXES AT ALL. I work my ass off for less than my parents made all because of union busting, skyrocketing medical costs, and CEO's that earn 20 times what they did in the 80's. Why do they deserve a 2000% raise when my salary has gone down for the last 5 years because all my raises are taken up by medical costs? If the minimum wage kept pace with CEO pay, it would be over $23 and hour. Get your head out of your ass. The only way for people like you and me to make it is to band together. Otherwise we are easy pickings for the ultra-rich. We make their products, sell them, advertise them, and get the smallest slice of the profits. Maybe you want America to be like China where they installed nets around worker dormitories because the people making your I-Phone were worked so hard that they were jumping. You want to let this shit happen here, and that is the saddest thing. The worst part is that this has all happened before, and you are bringing back the worst era for workers in US history. My family and yours FOUGHT for everything that you take for granted now, and you have no idea how fast it can all disappear.

I think you need to re-evaluate the conditions and purpose the unions and people fought for. Because you're not driving the Ferrari doesn't mean we're in the worst era for workers in US history. My grandfather is now rolling in his grave and was already grimacing at the bitching about today's economy before he passed last year. Good god dude seriously most people need to look at their own budgets. Because they're not making 60k a year in a factory to support their drinking, gambling, cell phone, 45k brand new truck, dish tv, internet, 2nd gas guzzler, we need to bitch. I'm pretty sure I'm not the one with my head up my ass. I'm the one driving an escort, growing trees, turning lights outs, saving water, biking, supporting green initiatives and yet I live in Madison, WI the most LIBERAL SOCIALIST city in the union and I see all the fucking hypocrites driving SUV's, clogging up the beltline (6 lane major arterial hwy) with a little more than 400k people. Madison created a single-sort recycling system which is AWESOME, yet no one fucking recycles. I'm sick of it. I look like a god damn republican in Madison yet I'm the only one following the "liberal" ways. Quit bitching and get back to work. If you don't like working for the man then get a new job. Oh, that's right you don't want to do REAL work like farming because you're not protected by a Union...could you imagine if Farmers Unionized...The country would truly go under.

[j0hnZ]

Oh, that's right you don't want to do REAL work like farming because you're not protected by a Union...could you imagine if Farmers Unionized...The country would truly go under.

http://tinyurl.com/3zzktgt

Not that real work is only done in manual labor. Obviously you don't hold a professional or skilled position.

[Gitt24_84]

Dude that's a different unionizing and actually not that its your business but I have my BS in Electrical Engineering and my MS in Manufacturing Engineering

[zxtwou2]

Dude that's a different unionizing and actually not that its your business but I have my BS in Electrical Engineering and my MS in Manufacturing Engineering

ahh, the key demographic of people i have to assist in pulling their heads out of their asses when I, a lowly electrician, have to physically show them why what they designed/planned will not in any sort of bend in the space time continuum will not work :p let's hope you are better than the chuckleheads at Caterpillar.

[j0hnZ]

Dude that's a different unionizing and actually not that its your business but I have my BS in Electrical Engineering and my MS in Manufacturing Engineering

Funny that you wouldn't use work that you do and instead use one that is traditionally manual labor...

No, it's the same thing. Farmers form a union, ranchers form a union to protect themselves from the man just like union workers do.

"National Farmers Union has been working to protect and enhance the economic well-being and quality of life for family farmers, ranchers and rural communities through advocating grassroots-driven policy positions adopted by its membership."

Although this is simple semantigans, your post was pretty bold in itself.

[spacemanspiff]

I think you need to re-evaluate the conditions and purpose the unions and people fought for. Because you're not driving the Ferrari doesn't mean we're in the worst era for workers in US history. My grandfather is now rolling in his grave and was already grimacing at the bitching about today's economy before he passed last year. Good god dude seriously most people need to look at their own budgets. Because they're not making 60k a year in a factory to support their drinking, gambling, cell phone, 45k brand new truck, dish tv, internet, 2nd gas guzzler, we need to bitch. I'm pretty sure I'm not the one with my head up my ass. I'm the one driving an escort, growing trees, turning lights outs, saving water, biking, supporting green initiatives and yet I live in Madison, WI the most LIBERAL SOCIALIST city in the union and I see all the fucking hypocrites driving SUV's, clogging up the beltline (6 lane major arterial hwy) with a little more than 400k people. Madison created a single-sort recycling system which is AWESOME, yet no one fucking recycles. I'm sick of it. I look like a god damn republican in Madison yet I'm the only one following the "liberal" ways. Quit bitching and get back to work. If you don't like working for the man then get a new job. Oh, that's right you don't want to do REAL work like farming because you're not protected by a Union...could you imagine if Farmers Unionized...The country would truly go under.

I can't help but notice that you answer everything that I post with an emotional response rather than a fact based argument. There are tons of things you should be pissed about, and yes there are lazy people that misuse unions and crooked people that get to be in charge of them. That doesn't mean that they have no reason to exist or real function in our society. I know exactly the type of person you talk about in Madison. My brother in law is a card carrying vegan douche that drives a fucking H2, and I want to kick his ass into outer space. On the other hand, I work my ass off at a regular, manual labor job, have 2 cars that get 30+ mpg by choice, and yeah, I do recycle. You are letting some of the admittedly worse examples blind you to what is happening to regular people. You aren't really going to see that in Madison either. The place that you are looking at this stuff from is a bought and paid for propaganda view of the world around you. My view is that the people making that widget in a factory deserve to make that 60 grand a year more than the ceo deserves to make 200 million. Nobody needs that kind of money, and letting people accumulate that kind of wealth leads to a direct take over of the state and federal government by the rich. I have never said that we need a communist society that pays everyone equally, but a fair days pay for a fair days work is...well....fair.

[spacemanspiff]

http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf

fair tax would be good for the middle class, and tax luxuries at a much higher rate that only the ultra rich can afford to buy.

I wish something like that would work, but I don't believe that it is realistic. What are you going to charge on a luxury good 300% in tax? It would take something like that to match how much they will NOT be paying in income tax. How about homes? A higher tax rate on buying a house would finish off the housing market right now, making it even harder for people to buy. And who are you really going to get to enforce it? Rich people get PHD's in dodging taxes. You can't tell me there won't just be a massive black market for luxury goods, or that they won't just buy mansions in another country and keep their ferrari there! These policies have loopholes for those among us who have the most, and big pitfalls for those who have the least.

[Gitt24_84]

I wish I would have never posted here. Anyone who posts already has their opinion and they feel obligated to change others opinions who are just like them. I think you're oblivious and you think I'm ignorant, great glad we got that out of the way, truce, I'm back to cars

[spacemanspiff]

Walking away from a debate is tantamount to admitting defeat, and not what I want. I see what you see, but you don't see what I see. I see the people you talk about, and I see my family and friends living paycheck to paycheck with a college education while their bosses have 2 houses, a retirement fund, and every toy you can think of all because their dad started the company 50 years ago. We are NOT in the countries worst time for workers, you misread my post. I said you were trying to bring back the worst time. You think just because you have a college education you can't be mistreated, paid nothing, and lose your job to someone that will work for less? It's coming, and will be here all too soon unless we prevent it. Your views are a race to the bottom, where we all lose what made this country great.

[powder]

$60k a year (which after taxes is only around $51k if you're married filing jointly) goes a long way with absolutely zero debt, but add just a house, a car and a maxed out credit card and it doesn't get you very far. Not to mention what you need to survive, electricity, water, fuel for your car to get to your job, food, etc. Then throw in your comcast bill at $100 a month and we are modern day slaves created by capitalism. The bottom link shows that the average american has over $14k in credit card debt, and 3.5 credit cards. Couple that with the average mortgage and average car payment and you quickly see how little $60k a year gets you if you're not disciplined.

Average salary range (http://www.ehow.com/about_5212740_average-middle-class-salary-range_.html)

Average mortgage payment (http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-09-16/real-estate/17617099_1_payment-assistance-programs-nehemiah-corp-home-buyers)

Average car payment (http://simplybonker.blogspot.com/2011/03/average-car-payment-in-america-is-484.html)

Average credit card debt (http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php)