Drill Here. Drill Now. Pay Less.

[Pacmanjoe]

Lots of info at here: http://www.americansolutions.com/
and videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericanSolutions



I think its a good idea. For now that is. Eventually we need something to replace oil but for now its the best idea.


What do you think?

[AZN_ZX2]

Quit bitching, quit bitching, quit bitching. Lol buy seriously perhaps people should have thought about this before they declared that hunk of Alaska untouchable???

Maybe it is a temporary solution maybe not. Personally I think high gas prices is a very good much needed lesson for most people in this country.

[DaviDawg]

Quit bitching, quit bitching, quit bitching. Lol buy seriously perhaps people should have thought about this before they declared that hunk of Alaska untouchable???

Maybe it is a temporary solution maybe not. Personally I think high gas prices is a very good much needed lesson for most people in this country.

WOW, i have to hear your explanation for, why?

[AZN_ZX2]

Gas prices have been higher everywhere else in the world for years. What gives us the right to have it at $2 a gallon when Britain is paying $8 and Canada is paying $7 (I don't know if those are accurate. They are just for the example)

And I think it is a good lesson because it is getting people to become more aware that oil is not going to last forever. It will help people be more wary of how they drive, and companies will start developing new fuel sources.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to have $1 a gallon but $4 a gallon doesn't bother me too much.

[SoCalZX2]

Problem is people won't learn those lessons. Well the majority won't IMO. I do live in california though... Maybe we just have a larger number of idiots on the roads :) lol.

[AZN_ZX2]

Problem is people won't learn those lessons. Well the majority won't IMO. I do live in california though... Maybe we just have a larger number of idiots on the roads :) lol.

Agreed a large amount won't initially, but I think more are learning now than before. But oil is a huge topic now, and will certainly play a role in politics if it isn't already.

[JonsZX2SR]

Azn has a point. Fuel prices are in the $9-10 per gallon range (after volume and currency conversions) in Europe and Europeans are taxed at a higher rate. Despite this and having fewer resources, their economy is in better shape than ours. They must be doing something better than we are ??

The prociple of supply and demand states that as you increase the price of a commodity, demand decreases. If fuel prices remain high and go higher, that means eventually we would use less fuel and ultimately import less foreign oil. From a balance of trade standpoint this would be a good thing for our economy.

People who point to solution where we pump more domestic oil to reduce fuel prices miss a few points. It takes time to bring new capacity on-line, much of our domestic processing and refining capacity belongs to foreign investoors, new oil is not cheap to develop and what makes anyone think the gov't can force someone to sell crude below narket price ?? If the Chinese or aomeone else offers the producers $20 more than the gov't set price why shouldn't the produers sell overseas.

...after all you wouldn't be advocating we become a solcialist nation, or would you ?? If you try to sell fuel below market price demand will soar to the point where refining capacity is exceeded and there will be lines at the pumps.

What would be good is to produce more fuel domestically (from oil, coal, algae, etc.) but sell it at market price. Controling demand but allowing the price to float will limit consumption, while increasing domestic production will help the balance of trade problem.

[SoCalZX2]

ZX2Guy19 said it best in another thread... "This world is screwed". The vast majority of the world seems to be out for themselves and it's why we have so many cars on the road. And fewer carpools. People like to drive, and they like their cars and performance.

So you have a bunch of self-centered people who don't think / believe that their driving is the problem (when in reality it's a large portion of the issue). So the only thing higher gas prices will do IMO is piss people off and instead of driving a car they want, they'll buy some more economical car and still drive like a dopey ass (and complain about it). So I just don't have the faith in humanity anymore that they'll learn... it's all about "me me me me me" or "mine mine mine mine" nowadays.

While I'm not as hurt by 4$/ga gas either, it's @ 4.55/ga here in san diego for the cheap places like arco. It still doesn't really bother me, but for those that don't live on a realistic budget, filling up is getting much more painful.

[AZN_ZX2]

Azn has a point. Fuel prices are in the $9-10 per gallon range (after volume and currency conversions) in Europe and Europeans are taxed at a higher rate. despite this their economy is in better shape than ours. They must be doing something better than we are ??

The prociple of supply and demand states that as you increase the price of a commodity, demand decreases. If fuel prices remain high and go higher, thta means eventually we would use less fuel and ultimately import less foreign oil. From a balance of trade standpoint this would be a good thing for our economy.

People who point to solution where we pump more domestic oil to reduce fuel prices miss a few points. It takes time to bring new capacity on-line, much of our domestic processing and refining capacity belongs to foreign investoors, new oil is not cheap to develop and what makes anyone think the gov't can force someone to sell crude below narket price ?? If the Chinese or aomeone else offers the producers $20 more than the gov't set price why shouldn't the produers sell overseas.

...after all you wouldn't be advocating we become a solcialist nation, or would you ?? If you try to sell fuel below market price demand will soar to the point where refining capacity is exceeded and there will be lines at the pumps.

What would be good is to produce more fuel domestically (from oil, coal, algae, etc.) but sell it at market price. Controling demand but allowing the price to float will limit consumption, while increasing domestic production will help the balance of trade problem.

It'd also cost a butt load to develop the facilities needed as well as new pipelines and whatever other equipment is needed. I think at least.

[AZN_ZX2]

ZX2Guy19 said it best in another thread... "This world is screwed". The vast majority of the world seems to be out for themselves and it's why we have so many cars on the road. And fewer carpools. People like to drive, and they like their cars and performance.

So you have a bunch of self-centered people who don't think / believe that their driving is the problem (when in reality it's a large portion of the issue). So the only thing higher gas prices will do IMO is piss people off and instead of driving a car they want, they'll buy some more economical car and still drive like a dopey ass (and complain about it). So I just don't have the faith in humanity anymore that they'll learn... it's all about "me me me me me" or "mine mine mine mine" nowadays.

While I'm not as hurt by 4$/ga gas either, it's @ 4.55/ga here in san diego for the cheap places like arco. It still doesn't really bother me, but for those that don't live on a realistic budget, filling up is getting much more painful.

Very good point. People always wait for someone else to take care of it too. But not all people. There's plenty of people becoming more aware of things happening. At least around me.

[SoCalZX2]

I agree that more people are becoming aware of the issue ;) Whether or not they'll make the personal changes that will benefit the country is a totally different story.

[AZN_ZX2]

I agree that more people are becoming aware of the issue ;) Whether or not they'll make the personal changes that will benefit the country is a totally different story.

Well I see people bring in their own reusable bags to use instead of paper ones. A year ago I barely saw it now it happens alot. So it is happening slowly. Sort of

[SoCalZX2]

Well I see people bring in their own reusable bags to use instead of paper ones. A year ago I barely saw it now it happens alot. So it is happening slowly. Sort of

Thats an investment I need to make... we've got a bajillion plastic bags @ home from grocery shopping.

[AZN_ZX2]

Thats an investment I need to make... we've got a bajillion plastic bags @ home from grocery shopping.

lol whole foods gives .10 off for each bag you reuse!

[SoCalZX2]

Hrm... I wonder if any of chains like albertsons does... We need to get a costco card though... cheaper and more food lol

[AZN_ZX2]

Hrm... I wonder if any of chains like albertsons does... We need to get a costco card though... cheaper and more food lol

I love costco. I think a & p shoprite places like that give maybe .02 lol

[SoCalZX2]

Yeah, just need to take the dive and pay the yearly due to get the costco card... maybe we'll work that into the food budget next month.

[JonsZX2SR]

ZX2Guy19 said it best in another thread... "This world is screwed". The vast majority of the world seems to be out for themselves and it's why we have so many cars on the road. And fewer carpools. People like to drive, and they like their cars and performance.

So you have a bunch of self-centered people who don't think / believe that their driving is the problem (when in reality it's a large portion of the issue). So the only thing higher gas prices will do IMO is piss people off and instead of driving a car they want, they'll buy some more economical car and still drive like a dopey ass (and complain about it). So I just don't have the faith in humanity anymore that they'll learn... it's all about "me me me me me" or "mine mine mine mine" nowadays.

Put it in another way... the US was once the greatest nation because 80% of us knew how to get things done and were realistic and practical. The other 20% were idiots. Now we've become a nation composed of 60% idiots who listen to every marketing ploy and 20% who don't care anymore. Unfortunately many of our leaders come from the idiot segment. The remaining 20% are the fraction who actually gets things done, but come under increased harassment when they offer realistic, but unpopular solutions.

I hear it all the time, "...if you're so smart, why can't you figure out how to make cheap fuel out of 'xyz', so it can be ready for sale in 6 months with no capital startup cost for $1.30 per gallon and solve environmental problems at the same time." Does anyone see a pattern here, where people who are clueless make unrealistic demands, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, then try to bully people into finding unworkable solutions.

If you dispute the magnitude of the idiot fraction, look no farther than the part of the population who live on credit they can't afford to repay or who bought homes or refinanced using loans they couldn't afford. We've become a nation of materialistic consumers who are clueless about economics, supply and demand, cost of money, saving and investing, etc.

The idiot masses make unrealistic demands wanting to live in the past and most of the politicians cater to those demands to get elected. Then pressure is out on those who can actually do things to find solutions that are acceptable to the politicians.

As long as we head down this path we are seriously screwed. Despite their own problems and socialist leanings, Europeans are less tolerant toward those who are unrealistic about rising energy costs, excessive personal debt, etc. Their social safety net may make healthcare and education more accessible, but people who make a mess of their lives find themselves poor but not starving with little sympathy.

I mean this a joke, but perhaps what we need to do is to export the idiot fraction of our population to other parts of the world to help balance trade and increase immigration for those who can get things done.

We were once a nation of doers, with a few who complained about their lot in life. We've become a nation of whiners and complainers, with a smaller portion of doers who are less interested in helping the whiners and complainers out.

[AZN_ZX2]

Well said man

[ImCrazy]

higher gas prices aren't a good lesson for anyone gas is high because its artificially inflated by many people AKA George Bush & friends the true cost of a barrel of crude is about $50 dollars in the middle east gas is less than $1 a gallon.

[SoCalZX2]

Yeah, that works Jon lol.

[SoCalZX2]

higher gas prices aren't a good lesson for anyone gas is high because its artificially inflated by many people AKA George Bush & friends the true cost of a barrel of crude is about $50 dollars in the middle east gas is less than $1 a gallon.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha... please stop feeding the fire of stupidity. Yes bush has been an oil investor for a long time... and yes I'm sure he's probably making a mint on the higher prices. BUT HE DOESN'T SET THE PRICES PER BARREL OF OIL.

In the middle east gas is < 1$ per gallon because they make the stuff... and dont use nearly as much as we do.

[JonsZX2SR]

higher gas prices aren't a good lesson for anyone gas is high because its artificially inflated by many people AKA George Bush & friends the true cost of a barrel of crude is about $50 dollars in the middle east gas is less than $1 a gallon.

How George Bush and friends are going to convince the oil producers to seel oil at $50 per barrel, when the Chinese are willing to pay over $100 per barrel (using US dollars) is beyond me.

The price of oil is set by supply and demand and prices competitors are willing to pay for it. In case you haven't noticed, the Chinese and other nations have entered into an economic competition (you can call it a war) with the US. The same is true for other commodities, steel, copper, nickel, etc.

...I also hold investments in oil and other energy producers so this discussion is not a theoretical one for me. The best I can do is stay afloat given current conditions and plan for an eventual retirement. The high oil prices benefit no one except foreign oil producers and they hurt other businesses.

Have you studied international economics ?? Do you even know what economics involves ?? Unless we get away from paranoid thinking, such as what you propose, and try to make the US competitive we will not win the economic competition.

Wake up, people who think like you are part of the 60% problem, not part of the solution.

[JonsZX2SR]

Has anyone stopped to think that in 1940 if the US demographics of idiot whiners and complainers vs. doers was what it is today

...we would be speaking German on the east coast and Japanese in Hawaii and on the west coast. Somehow a southern drawl and German just don't go together in the south.

Wake up people... despite what a lot of young people think today, our grandparents were, on the average, a lot smarter than young people today.

[ImCrazy]

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha... please stop feeding the fire of stupidity. Yes bush has been an oil investor for a long time... and yes I'm sure he's probably making a mint on the higher prices. BUT HE DOESN'T SET THE PRICES PER BARREL OF OIL.

In the middle east gas is < 1$ per gallon because they make the stuff... and dont use nearly as much as we do.

Gas prices are artifically inflated cost is $50 selling price is like $139 now? I could see them making a 100% profit and selling for $100 but making almost $100 dollars profit on a barrel or oil is absurd to me. Plus all the trading of oil stock doesn't help matters. Oil is a resource everyone NEEDS and their for the price needs to be controlled by the government If they have to drill in North Dakota or Alaska or wherever its fine by me but the government needs to step up and do something. Last year gas was $2.80 something a gallon and I thought damn how am i gonna afford this now its $4.00 and I can't afford it. However I have no choice I can't carpool more than I do now so yeah there has to be a better system. Energy costs are too high and thats the bottom line.

Also the price of groceries is going up too and that is artifically inflated too.

Think of the truck drivers the owner operators who can't make a profit anymore because the rising cost of diesel, this disgusts me the most of all I think.

[ImCrazy]

Oh and I hope the oil bubble bursts and everyone who invests in it goes broke over it just like I am going broke buying the fuel.

[SoCalZX2]

I don't disagree that the Government needs to find a way to lower the costs. But you can't logically push the blame onto Bush for the price per barrel of oil. He doesn't control the people that make those prices.... Go after them... you know the ones that actually make the prices.

Everyone is affected by these prices.

Also as brought up, Bush has pushed for more domestic drilling, and refineries... But guess who shoots that down... The democrat controlled congress. Also as Jon says, there are / will be ramifications to drilling our own oil... Now I'd think if we don't try and support the world with our oil and just ween off our foreign dependency with our own oil, then it couldn't hurt too much... but I could be wrong there.

[SoCalZX2]

Has anyone stopped to think that in 1940 if the US demographics of idiot whiners and complainers vs. doers was what it is today

...we would be speaking German on the east coast and Japanese in Hawaii and on the west coast. Somehow a southern drawl and German just don't go together in the south.

Wake up people... despite what a lot of young people think today, our grandparents were, on the average, a lot smarter than young people today.

In more ways than one.

[ImCrazy]

Its a conflict of interest to have a president who invests in oil trying to bring prices down its all corrupt almost every politician.

[JonsZX2SR]

Gas prices are artifically inflated cost is $50 selling price is like $139 now? I could see them making a 100% profit and selling for $100 but making almost $100 dollars profit on a barrel or oil is absurd to me. Plus all the trading of oil stock doesn't help matters. Oil is a resource everyone NEEDS and their for the price needs to be controlled by the government If they have to drill in North Dakota or Alaska or wherever its fine by me but the government needs to step up and do something. Last year gas was $2.80 something a gallon and I thought damn how am i gonna afford this now its $4.00 and I can't afford it. However I have no choice I can't carpool more than I do now so yeah there has to be a better system. Energy costs are too high and thats the bottom line.

Also the price of groceries is going up too and that is artifically inflated too.

Think of the truck drivers the owner operators who can't make a profit anymore because the rising cost of diesel, this disgusts me the most of all I think.

Certainly you can't be that clueless... Most of the profits from petroleum production are going to overseas producers. The percentage profit made by the refiners is small and the percentage made on the distribution end is marginal. Are you also aware that a consierable portion of refineries are owned by foreeigners.

With the dollar being worth about 60% of what it was 4-5 years ago (due to a huge trade imbalance and the cost of the Iraq war) oil that might have cost $40-50 is going to cost $66-83 before increased demand and higher production costs are factored in. $50 per barrel oil under current economic conditions is a pipe dream.

So is $1.00 per pound copper and $0.10 per pound mild steel. The price for scrap steel has risen from less than $0.10 per pound to more than $0.25. It isn't just oil, it's all commodities where demand has increased and the Chinese and others are willing to pay more to ensure supplies.

What part of if the Chinese are willing to pay $100 per barrel for oil using US dollars, no one is going to sell oil to the US for $50 per barrel don't you understand ??

Seriously, you and people like you are the cause of economic problems the US is facing, not the solution. This is exactly what the Chinese want, paranoid complaining from the whiners in the US. You are unable to compete globally and think whining is going to bring back the past ...and yes, you are crazy.

Better to figure out how to afford $5 per gallon gasoline (Europeans are already successfully paying $9-10 per gallon) rather than whining about cheap fuel.

Do you admit Europeans on the average are smarter and more competitive than you are ?? If you can't afford $4 per gallon, walk or take the bus, but stop your whining.

[SoCalZX2]

Then it's a conflict of interest for anyone to invest and then hold a position of power. lol

He's been into oil since before he was a Governor of TX. It's just ludicrous to solely blame someone who has very little to do with world economics as far as the price of oil per barrel. Sorry you're looking to make your case on Bush because he's been an oil investor forever and he's currently the president of a country where gas prices are sky rocketing.

Pull your head out of the sand and realize that this really is out of his control.

[JonsZX2SR]

The root of the problem is the balance of trade problems caused by the Iraq war and Americans spending (borrowed) dollars on Chinese goods. Foreign nations use dollars to compete for limited commodities, driving up prices.

Americans can't have it both ways, excessive spending on cheap foreign imports and a healthy dollar and economy at home.

What we need to do is learn to buy less and wisely, send less dollars overseas, save and invest at home and be willing to pay more for US made goods. That includes $6-8 per gallon for secure synthfuel made from coal, oil shale or algae. Everything would be more expensive, but our economy and jobs would be more secure.

People complaining about wanting cheap fuel, cheap goods, etc. are undermining our competitiveness. These are the one's least able to compete are dragging the rest of us down with their complaining.

We need to eliminate our dependence on foreign energy sources, but that isn't going to happen unless we as Americans are willing to invest and pay more for secure fuel. Then the rest of the world can argue and bash each others heads in over the remaining oil.

[SoCalZX2]

The root problem IMHO is the lack of financial responsibility for the government and for each individual person in America. Personally speaking, people aren't willing to pay more for a great American product because they don't have the money...

If people could get their finances in order we could actually afford to invest in our own economy make the country a better place for everyone.

Fiscal responsibility though does start with the Government. If they would get their spending under control, and start working with a surplus and removing the national debt, then people from all walks of life could take a lesson.

Working from that position, you can find a way to invest heavily in research for better renewable energy and ween off the foreign oil and keep our economy strong @ home and across the world.

[JonsZX2SR]

I completely agree. If you look at the Japanese they have far fewer resources than the US and a higher population density. Yet their work ethic, and gov't and personal spending habits enables a healthier economy that can invest overseas to support their economy. The same is true for Europeans who pay over $9 per gallon for fuel and higher taxes compared to the US.

The problem is much worse than people imagine, because there are companies and individuals in US companies that are investing wisely, building business both here and overseas. What people don't understand is these US businesses are propping up our economy, rather than undermining it.

If the attitude of some individuals and the gov't is to subsidize cheap everything for the masses it will undermine the positive side of the US economy and make our strong sectors globally uncompetitive through demands for taxation.

Too many people want cheap goods, cheap fuel, cheap hosues, etc. They never learned to comepete and be successful. Instead they complain that the more successful guy got the attractive, intelligent girl, the organized couple got the nicer home and the annual vacation, the better car, etc.

Some people are looking for the socialist tooth fairy to set things right, give them the nice girl, the good home, an infusion of intelligence they didn't develop in high school, cheap gas, an easy life etc., etc., etc.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the socialist tooth fairy doesn't exist. Life is meant to be a struggle. we need to re-learn this as Americans, get organized and get back to being doers.

Imagine during WW2 if the complainers whined about rationing and that winning a war is too difficult ??

[SoCalZX2]

I completely agree. If you look at the Japanese they have far fewer resources than the US and a higher population density. Yet their work ethic, and gov't and personal spending habits enables a healthier economy that can invest overseas to support their economy. The same is true for Europeans who pay over $9 per gallon for fuel and higher taxes compared to the US.

The problem is much worse than people imagine, because there are companies and individuals in US companies that are investing wisely, building business both here and overseas. What people don't understand is these US businesses are propping up our economy, rather than undermining it.

If the attitude of some individuals and the gov't is to subsidize cheap everything for the masses it will undermine the positive side of the US economy and make our strong sectors globally uncompetitive through demands for taxation.

Too many people want cheap goods, cheap fuel, cheap hosues, etc. They never learned to comepete and be successful. Instead they complain that the more successful guy got the attractive, intelligent girl, the organized couple got the nicer home and the annual vacation, the better car, etc.

Some people are looking for the socialist tooth fairy to set things right, give them the nice girl, the good home, an infusion of intelligence they didn't develop in high school, cheap gas, an easy life etc., etc., etc.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the socialist tooth fairy doesn't exist. Life is meant to be a struggle. we need to re-learn this as Americans, get organized and get back to being doers.

Imagine during WW2 if the complainers whined about rationing and that winning a war is too difficult ??

It doesn't exist yet... but you can't deny that no matter which party is in office this countries government has been heading that way for years if not decades. There are far too many socialist style plans. Social Security, Welfare just to name a couple. Both of which are abusable by people.

The Government wants control, and so their happy to give people these programs in exchange for simple freedoms. Personally I don't want the government to control my daily life and I'm not willing to give up my freedoms to make things "fair" for the masses.

This country wasn't build on "fair". It was built on hard work, as you say... being a DOER and not a complainer. As one of my fave radio personalities says: Dave Ramsey: "No it's not easy, it's hard... It's just worth it". He is talking about financial discipline and succeeding over the long term vs the "I want it now" syndrome that most Americans face.

[SoCalZX2]

btw lol, we're MILES off topic :D But I guess it kinda all ties together no? Oil is part of the economy.

[JonsZX2SR]

You can look at things another way, from the perspective of survival of the fittest. Those who can't compete go extinct. If we prop up those who can't compete we undermine our economy and we all go extinct.

There was complaining in the 70's when gas went from $0.30 to 0.$60 per gallon with severe shortages. people complained then and during alter jumps. Imagine how screwed up and uncompetitive our economy would be today, if the gov't provided subsidized gasoline.

I can afford $4.50 per gallon gasoline and I've adjusted my driving, ride my bike (which I always did anyway) and I'm planning to be competitive even if gas hits $6-7 per gallon. I want to be able to compete with the Europeans and the Japanese. I also buy less junk than the next guy, buy every other time i want something and try to send as little $$ to China.

So some people can't afford to pay for gas, let them ride the bus or walk. Either they'll go extinct, or their children will learn a valuable lesson and become competitive Americans.

If the Japanese and Europeans can do it, why can't the average American adjust their lifestyle to succeed in a competitive world ??

[ImCrazy]

You can look at things another way, from the perspective of survival of the fittest. Those who can't compete go extinct. If we prop up those who can't compete we undermine our economy and we all go extinct.

There was complaining in the 70's when gas went from $0.30 to 0.$60 per gallon with severe shortages. people complained then and during alter jumps. Imagine how screwed up and uncompetitive our economy would be today, if the gov't provided subsidized gasoline.

I can afford $4.50 per gallon gasoline and I've adjusted my driving, ride my bike (which I always did anyway) and I'm planning to be competitive even if gas hits $6-7 per gallon. I want to be able to compete with the Europeans and the Japanese. I also buy less junk than the next guy, buy every other time i want something and try to send as little $$ to China.

So some people can't afford to pay for gas, let them ride the bus or walk. Either they'll go extinct, or their children will learn a valuable lesson and become competitive Americans.

If the Japanese and Europeans can do it, why can't the average American adjust their lifestyl;e for a competitive world ??


accepting high gas prices is not the answer. We need to fight to get gas back to reasonable levels.

In Europe they have a better public transportation system IIRC?

[SoCalZX2]

You can look at things another way, from the perspective of survival of the fittest. Those who can't compete go extinct. If we prop up those who can't compete we undermine our economy and we all go extinct.

There was complaining in the 70's when gas went from $0.30 to 0.$60 per gallon with severe shortages. people complained then and during alter jumps. Imagine how screwed up and uncompetitive our economy would be today, if the gov't provided subsidized gasoline.

I can afford $4.50 per gallon gasoline and I've adjusted my driving, ride my bike (which I always did anyway) and I'm planning to be competitive even if gas hits $6-7 per gallon. I want to be able to compete with the Europeans and the Japanese. I also buy less junk than the next guy, buy every other time i want something and try to send as little $$ to China.

So some people can't afford to pay for gas, let them ride the bus or walk. Either they'll go extinct, or their children will learn a valuable lesson and become competitive Americans.

If the Japanese and Europeans can do it, why can't the average American adjust their lifestyle for a competitive world ??

Because this isn't how we're taught to live. We see over 1500 advertisements a day. We are taught to be consumers, not savers.

People aren't taught to put money away. They're taught to spend it... Enjoy it while you can... Live like there's no tomorrow... Instant gratification is the way 70% of this culture lives. No one can tell themselves no.

Lessons like saving and investing and living on a budget do NOT apply to this country. We have this ego and thought that we deserve everything the way we want it because we have a pulse. Which just simply isn't true.

Luckily my wife and I have been able to figure that out. We're totally ok with putting instant success and fun aside for a short while to better our longterm outlook on life. We're not part of that 70% that is living paycheck to paycheck... We would have no problem affording higher gas prices, and I barely feel the pinch @ the pump as I get 35mpg in my ZX2.. I fill up 2x a month lol.

But America is a land of consumers, which is why 70% of people live paycheck to paycheck and why 25% have a negative net worth. People don't believe you can pay cash for things like cars, homes and college. So they rack up payments that keep them from financially succeeding. (Now I know mathematically there are ways that loans can work for you, you've proven that much)

As long as the vocal majority is complainers this country will not succeed as a whole no matter who is in office. Subsidized programs are a flop and a failure and are generally abused by those who could do without the program if they'd actually just apply themselves.

[JonsZX2SR]

accepting high gas prices is not the answer. We need to fight to get gas back to reasonable levels.

In Europe they have a better public transportation system IIRC?

I'd rather put government money into mass transportation, secure fuel even if it costs $9 per gallon and trying to figure out why some Americans can't compete with Europeans and Japanese.

When you come down to it the relevant question is not why gasoline costs more than $4 per gallon today, but why it cost less than $3 per gallon a few years ago when Europeans were paying more than $6 per gallon.

...spending money and energy trying to figure out why fuel cost more than 10 years ago would have done no good in the 70's or 80's. It would be a waste now. I'd rather the US figure out how we can outcompete the rest of the word even if fuel cost $16 per gallon. That would give us a competitive advantage. What you advocate puts us at a disadvantage vs. those who plan for adversity.

Is the US economy in big trouble ?? (http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/12/10/business/19691002&sec=business)

Learn to be successful or go extinct. My question to you is what makes you less competitive than most Europeans or Japanese that you need subsidized fuel prices???

[AZN_ZX2]

jon you should be a politician lol

[SoCalZX2]

He's got far too much sense to be one.

Edit:

He also wouldn't really make it.. He promotes self accountability, and limited government (I base these comments off of this topic conversation)

[RedRacer99]

i'll admit i'm a lazy ass.. i live not even five minutes from work but i drive every time.

[JonsZX2SR]

jon you should be a politician lol

He's got far too much sense to be one.

Edit:

He also wouldn't really make it.. He promotes self accountability, and limited government (I base these comments off of this topic conversation)

I would be a terrible politician, although I was elected to 2 terms as a member of my town school board as an independent moderate.

I don't want to be a politician, I don't want to have to say the politically correct thing, I want people to make decisions that lead to success.

I work for a Fortune 100 company. My title is Principal Engineer, whatever that means. Most of the time I am trying to figure out how to fix problems with products, how to make products work better or how to make products more profitable without compromising quality. My job is global, including China and Europe, so when I speak of global competitivenss it is from a practical, not theoretical sense. I beleive American companies that have gone global who SELL overseas will be the salvation of the US economy.

If we don't start exporting more, even if it is technology rather than manufacturered goods, then we cannot sustain the US economy, relative to the world. The decline of the US dollar is directly related to a flood of dollars going overseas and foreign investors using those dollars to buy oil, steel, cooper or using them to buy US companies. If we don't change our course, we will wind up like mexico or other nations that were owned by foreigners.

The problem with trying to solve the fuel problem with subsidized cheap fuel is those who can only afford cheap fuel will never be competitive with those who can afford more expensive fuel. If fuel goes to $2.50 per gallon the guy who can afford $4 per gallon fuel can buy fuel and buy other goods and stimulate the economy, while the guy who can only afford $2.50 fuel is stuck.

The same goes for global competitivenes. If China can afford $125 per barrel oil and the price drops to $85 per barrel the extra money will go to increasing their capabilities or buying US companies. Unless the US finds a way to be competitive again on the global market we will always find ourselves behind. In the past it happened with Japan. Fortunately for US, Japans problems turned things to our advantage.

Fortunately, there are big US companies who can compete, and they mostly have competitive employees here and abroad who understand this. The political problem in the US is if too many people start crying for cheap this and cheap that and these companies come under attack, and get taxed into oblivion and the US loses valuable resources.

Instead of complaining about prices and looking for subsidies and cheap fuel, figure out how to become more competitive so you can afford $4 per gallon gasoline. If prices drop to $3 per gallon in the future, you will have extra money to spend.

SoCal and his family is an excellent example of a family learning to cope with the economic downturn. When the economy is in an upturn, the strategy he has adopted will allow them to enjoy the fruits of their planning. More Americans learn to plan for the ups and downs.

[SoCalZX2]

I don't want to be a politician, I don't want to have to say the politically correct thing, I want people to make decisions that lead to success.

SoCal and his family is an excellent example of a family learning to cope with the economic downturn. When the economy is in an upturn, the strategy he has adopted will allow them to enjoy the fruits of their planning.

Thats an excellent sentence about what our politicians have become. A bunch of people bound by being PC and trying to make everyone happy... instead of making tougher decisions and having people fend for themselves and do better for themselves.

Thanks for the kind words man :D

[PHeller]

I've heard this too many times to count:

"WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE LIKE EUROPEANS, WE'RE AMERICAN!"

and as American's we've gotta start swallowing our pride.

[SoCalZX2]

I'm not really sure it's a pride issue. I personally don't want to live like a European either. I want to live like I want to live. I just want to live differently than most.

[krux]

I hope they figure something out quick with the gas prices. For me it has hurt me on looking for a job. With this I know in our area the dealerships haven't been doing so well. Problem is that gas prices rose over 100 percent one year and nobody was ready for it. Oh I hate when people say.."well the Europeans are paying blah blah blah..and look at there roads..way nicer and its all tax there paying".

[JonsZX2SR]

I've heard this too many times to count:

"WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE LIKE EUROPEANS, WE'RE AMERICAN!"

and as American's we've gotta start swallowing our pride.

Then start living and problem solving like Americans from past generations. Too many Americans today are soft and want someone else to rescue them when faced with adversity. If being American in 2008 means being soft and uncompetitive, then I don't want to be American Ver.2008. I'd rather be American Ver.1942 or American Ver.2009.SP1, even if that means adopting some European or Asian attitudes.

So you don't want to be like (successful) Europeans ? Wasn't one of the things that made America great in the past the ability to adopt ideas from other cultures and use them to our advantage ? What happened to those ideas, that ability? If any of you wants to go extinct, be my guest, there are plenty of talented immigrants who can take your place.

I hope they figure something out quick with the gas prices. Problem is that gas prices rose over 100 percent one year and nobody was ready for it. Oh I hate when people say.."well the Europeans are paying blah blah blah..and look at there roads..way nicer and its all tax there paying".

Speak for yourself, a lot of people saw the run up in petroleum, steel, copper, nickel coming due to an increase in demand. People laughed at us, but some companies planned ahead. Unfortunately the same can't be said for Ford, GM and Chrysler, but Toyota and Honda did have plans to mix their product lines.

I have no sympathy for Americans who didn't see this coming. It has been discussed for years in financial publications. The unwillingness to deal with tough problems is exactly why the US doesn't have a synthfuel program from coal or oil shale.

You may hate it when people point out that Europeans have a healthier economy while paying higher taxes AND paying for more expensive fuel, but it is true.

If you read previous posts correctly, people aren't asking anyone to become Europeans, just be as or more successful than Europeans. The choice is between succeeding or failing globally. I think previous generation Americans would succeed, but I too many current Americans are whiners who have no testicles (or ovaries, depending on gender) and would rather complain.

What to do about rising energy prices ? (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/29/gas.prices/index.html)

Imagine if Americans had the attitude that we are going to succeed even if fuel prices go to $6 per gallon and we will outcompete the rest of the world anyway ?? That would certainly stick our collective thumbs in the eyes of the oil producing nations.

There is nothing I would like to see than an American synthfuel program, even at $6-7 per gallon and a healthy home grown economy. Let the oil producing nations and the rest of the world bash each others heads in. But to get there we need to lose our dependence on foreign oil.

The first step is to get everyone to shut up about wanting cheap fuel. An added benefit is it would make our military incredibly independent of the rest of the world.

My own motivation is to do what I can to better myself and those around me to be successful. That includes my own interest in global manufacturing and energy reasearch. If others are looking for handouts, I would oppose that politically.

If that offends anyone, too bad. Suck it up and welcome to the future. The future is now.

[krux]

Then start living and problem solving like Americans from past generations. Too many Americans today are soft and want someone else to rescue them when faced with adversity. If being American in 2008 means being soft and uncompetitive, then I don't want to be American Ver.2008. I'd rather be American Ver.1942 or American Ver.2009.SP1, even if that means adopting some European or Asian attitudes.

So you don't want to be like (successful) Europeans ? Wasn't one of the things that made America great in the past the ability to adopt ideas from other cultures and use them to our advantage ? What happened to those ideas, that ability? If any of you wants to go extinct, be my guest, there are plenty of talented immigrants who can take your place.



Speak for yourself, a lot of people saw the run up in petroleum, steel, copper, nickel coming due to an increase in demand. People laughed at us, but some companies planned ahead. Unfortunately the same can't be said for Ford, GM and Chrysler, but Toyota and Honda did have plans to mix their product lines.

I have no sympathy for Americans who didn't see this coming. It has been discussed for years in financial publications. The unwillingness to deal with tough problems is exactly why the US doesn't have a synthfuel program from coal or oil shale.

You may hate it when people point out that Europeans have a healthier economy while paying higher taxes AND paying for more expensive fuel, but it is true.

If you read previous posts correctly, people aren't asking anyone to become Europeans, just be as or more successful than Europeans. The choice is between succeeding or failing globally. I think previous generation Americans would succeed, but I too many current Americans are whiners who have no testicles (or ovaries, depending on gender) and would rather complain.

What to do about rising energy prices ? (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/29/gas.prices/index.html)

Imagine if Americans had the attitude that we are going to succeed even if fuel prices go to $6 per gallon and we will outcomepete the rest of the world anyway ?? That would certainly stick our collective thumbs in the eyes of the oil producing nations.

There is nothing I would like to see than an American synthfuel program, even at $6-7 per gallon and a healthy home grown economy. Let the oil producing nations and the rest of the world bash each others heads in. But to get there we need to lose our dependence on foreign oil.

The first step is to get everyone to shut up about wanting cheap fuel. An added benefit is it would make our military incredibly independent of the rest of the world.

My own motivation is to do what I can to better myself and those around me to be successful. That includes my own interest in global manufacturing and energy reasearch. If others are looking for handouts, I would oppose that politically.

If that offends anyone, too bad. Suck it up and welcome to the future. the future is now.



Way easier said then done. Get everyone to shut up about fuel. Just because you might make great money and can afford it doesn't mean everyone else can. Some people are just making ends meat and for you to push them out of there range of money makes them less of a person. Granted not all of the people on here or in the usa went to college and make a bunch of money but rather went another way. You can't ignore the poor population. I don't think it can be changed at such as a fast of a rate as it did. Granted we knew it was coming but most of us just try to live our lifes day by day trying to get by. Agree to disagree..thats how i feel.

[JonsZX2SR]

It isn't a matter of who can pay for fuel and who can't. We are all in this mess together. There are other solutions such as ride sharing with co-workers and mass transit. If you have 3 guys in a car pool, you cut your going to work fuel costs by more than half. Your $4 per gal fuel costs less per week in a carpool than $2 per gal fuel if everyone is riding alone.

The worst thing we could do is subsidize fuel, because it will just maintain consumption, continue sending dollars to the Middle east and not fix our balance of trade problem. When fuel gets to $9 per gallon the fix will be more difficult.

Of course it is tough, but whining doesn't buy you anything. Imagine if Americans whined that fighting the Japanese or Germans in 1942 was tough. Too many Americans today are soft and expect things to be easy.

Any solution that doesn't encourage a reduction of fuel consumption isn't a solution, because it doesn't get to the root of the problem.

What I would like to see is $6-7 per gallon home grown (coal, tar sands, biomass, etc.) because this would have the benefit of keeping money at home and reducing consumption. At this price we could be making fuel without subsidies in less than 10 years. What I want to see is the US pound the rest of the world economically, because we broke the dependence on foreign oil first. That would lead to a healthier economy and more secure jobs for Americans. That isn't going to happen if you give in the whiners and provide cheap subsidized fuel.

As a compromise, how about an affordable program where everyone with a valid drivers license and car gets 2.5 gallons of subsidized fuel at $2.80 per gallon to get to work and the rest of their fuel is at free market price. The first thing that people are going to complain is that 2.5 gallons per week isn't enough and they need more. How about if three people carpool and combine their 2.5 gallons. Better, only make subsidized fuel available to carpools. That might have the benefit of both helping people get to work AND reduce consumption.

So who is going to be the first the whine, I don't wanna carpool, it's unAmerican ?? You're not getting my sympathy.

Try car pooling, riding a bike to work, telecommuting, working four 10 hour days if you employer allows it, etc. to reduce fuel costs. I do it and it makes things less painful.

[ImCrazy]

I would love to see american made fuel's from coal etc cause it would give people jobs plus keep the money in the us. However @ 6-7 dollars a gallon that would be insane. $4 is too much i'd be happy with 2.50. Gas is artifically over priced thats what bugs me.

[ImCrazy]

When everywhere else u look people are having slim profit margins and oil producers are having huge margins I think thats fucked.

[JonsZX2SR]

It's not overpriced. the people with big margins are the overseas oil producers. Even the refiners are feeling pinched, and half of them are owned by foreign concerns. Oil at $139 per barrel is abnormally high, but given the current state of the dollar I don't expect oil to drop below $100-110 per barrel.

If you think $6 per gallon is too expensive, Europeans are paying over $9 per gallon and they have healthy economies and lifestyles. Explain to me why you can't compete with Europeans.

Imagine how strong our economy would be if we could learn to deal with $6 per gal. domestic synthfuel, cut our overall consumption and cut our ties to foreign oil. We could pound everyone economically.

Not going to happen if we rely on cheap subsidized fuel, fail to cut consumption, then when demand exceeds supply have to pay twice what we are now for foreign oil.

[ImCrazy]

Yeah well thats not gonna happen since the jobs aren't there for people to make more money and the people who have jobs can't get enough hours to make ends meet. Maybe you don't get it but there are some people who cannot cut anything else outta their lifestyles. Personally I can afford to maintain my life style as long as i drive a fuel efficient vehicle aka a small car however id like to be able to drive a nice large truck too.

THe easterners need to lower prices so they can stay competitive they will lower them back down in a few months I bet,.

Ban also said Saudi Arabia understands that the current price of oil, which topped $139 per barrel earlier this month, is not normal, according to the official Saudi Press Agency.

"The king believes that the current oil prices are abnormally high, and he is ready to restore prices to their appropriate levels," SPA quoted Ban as telling reporters in Jiddah. The report carried by SPA was in Arabic, and it did not say what language Ban spoke in.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080615/ap_on_bi_ge/saudi_oil;_ylt=Aj.q9u6NBStxwIyBcFy29kys0NUE

[Buster]

jon you should be a politician lol

:D

Do you realize how much of an insult that is?

Why not call him a lawyer while you're at it.

[AZN_ZX2]

:D

Do you realize how much of an insult that is?

Why not call him a lawyer while you're at it.

rofl

[PHeller]

THe easterners need to lower prices so they can stay competitive they will lower them back down in a few months I bet,.


Of course they will, but the problem won't go away. We'll still see rising demand throughout the world as developing nations become industrialized.

The reason Europe has maintained its competitiveness in the world market is because all of its gas taxes have gone into making public transit more available and more efficient.

Really, $4.00gal sucks, but if I knew that gas only cost $2.00, and $2 was going into making my train fare from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh only cost $10, and my bus fair from Lancaster into the city only cost 50 cents, and I had a bicycle lane to the nearest supermarket, and I knew that our enemies in the Middle East or else-where were not receiving my hard earned dollars, and that my country was investing it into renewable resources. I'D BE DAMN HAPPY TO PAY $4.00 A GALLON! OR $8.00!

[JonsZX2SR]

The part that is overlooked is that higher prices at the pump means demand is less, and less net money (Eu not $, for example) go to the oil producing nations.

The logical flaw in the argument that we need cheaper fuel, is cheaper fuel will spur increased consumption, which will drive prices up all over again.

Yeah well thats not gonna happen since the jobs aren't there for people to make more money and the people who have jobs can't get enough hours to make ends meet. Maybe you don't get it but there are some people who cannot cut anything else outta their lifestyles. Personally I can afford to maintain my life style as long as i drive a fuel efficient vehicle aka a small car however id like to be able to drive a nice large truck too.

The problem with this argument is it potentially ignores reality. Sometimes there aren't viable solutions and people have to do things they don't want. In it's most harsh form you have economic conditions where people are starving and dying. Saying people have to live doesn't fix the problem.

Fortunately we aren't anywhere near that limit, nor should we be. But some people may not be able to afford big cars, or more than one car or driving every day. Fuel may just wind up costing $6 per gallon and some people may have to car pool or not be able to drive at all.

This country has faced hardship before, the Depression, WW2, etc. and we found a way to work our way out of it and thrive. Unfortunately we did a lousy job after Katrina, now people too many people are whining they want cheap gas, and saying someone has to provide cheap gas because people refuse to look at options. Seriously if all those who can't afford $4 per gallon gas carpooled half the time, the weekly cost of fuel would be as if it were 43 per gallon without carpooling.

We are already doing this at work, in particular for meetings at different sites. 3-4 per car, teleconferencing and sometiomes teleconferencing from home. It works...

Regarding the effects of increased production, Don't Count on OPEC (http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/16/news/economy/oil_supply/index.htm?postversion=2008061614).

As for being insulted, stuff like that doesn't bother me. It's probably for the better I didn't become a politician or lawyer, because I'd be involved in some big scandal or in jail for some ethics violation.

[PHeller]

So what your saying is, where as in the past we've had hardships that the whole nation had to overcome our current generation has gotten lazy, not only in work ethic, but ideologically as well?

So $4-6 a gallon will be "the hardship" this generation will require in order to succeed for the next 50 years?

[Pacmanjoe]

So what your saying is, where as in the past we've had hardships that the whole nation had to overcome our current generation has gotten lazy, not only in work ethic, but ideologically as well?

So $4-6 a gallon will be "the hardship" this generation will require in order to succeed for the next 50 years?



Wonder if Jon realizes the "tough" generation fuck over our "soft" generation in many ways.

Any I second Jon be a politician.

[JonsZX2SR]

I'll never be a politician. I say what I feel. I don't care if everyone winds up hating me here, I'll say what I been saying for 2 years. I hope the price of gasoline goes over $6 per gallon. Hate me if you wish (I really don't give a crap about what people think) but read on...

Why do I say this ? Because it is more important to reduce petroleum consumption and dependencies on foreign sources than it is to have cheap fuel. Most people don't have the will to reduce gasoline use. Subsidizing it and making it cheaper will only increase demand.

So what your saying is, where as in the past we've had hardships that the whole nation had to overcome our current generation has gotten lazy, not only in work ethic, but ideologically as well?

So $4-6 a gallon will be "the hardship" this generation will require in order to succeed for the next 50 years?

Considering what past generations went through, learning how to deal with $6 per gallon fuel isn't much of a hardship.

For example, think about someone who drives 30 miles each way 5 days a week (300 miles per week) in a car that gets 25 mpg. They burn 12 gallons per week for work. At $2.80 per gallon that's less than $34 per week for commuting to work. If prices rise to $4.25 per gallon that becomes $51 per week or an increase of about $17 per week.

$17 per week is a few packs of cigarettes a week, not having the family eat out once and eating at home. If the guy carpools with a friend that cuts driving for each to 150 miles per week (2 trips one week, then 3 trips the next on average.) for 6 gallons consumed. Guess what, commuting costs dropped from under $34 per week to about $25.50 per week. Even at $6 per gallon, if you carpool fuel costs only rise to $36 per week. Factor in reduced wear and tear on the vehicle and there's an added benefit.

If high fuel prices encourages people to burn less gasoline it will help curb oil imports. I don't see cheap subsidized fuel doing that. Seriously if $17 per week or having to carpool is an unacceptable hardship for the current 'soft' generation I feel sorry for the entire lot of you.

If you can't deal with carpooling, telecommuting to work, mass transit, you have bigger problems. But I'm willing to bet there are a few who are going to step up and contribute other constructive alternatives.

Unfortunately higher fuel prices are going to increase the cost of food and manufactured goods, There is no getting around that. Rather than try to figure out how to get and burn as much cheap fuel as we can, perhaps the more logical approach would be to reduce consumption so the impact on food and manufactured goods is lessened.

If the higher cost of fuel drove up the cost of imports and reduced trade with China or Japan, that wouldn't bother me one bit. Maybe each of us needs to buy half as many big screen TV's every few years.

At some point foreign oil producing nations may get pissed off at us for some of our foreign policies, troops in the Middle East, support for Israel, maybe just because we are a nation of consumers who they hate. Knowing they would have a hard time beating us militarily, they decide to strangle our economy by raising the price of fuel.

Sound far-fetched? It's already happening. Knowing they can get top dollar from China and other emerging nations. China understands by continuing to supply the spineless American consumer they can continue to acquire dollars which they use to pay for oil. The spiral continues.

Sooner or later, a group of OPEC nations are going to figure out they can really hurt us by limiting the supply of petroleum, no matter how much we can pay. If that happens, and we are forced to rely on domestic supplies, we might be able to provide 7-8 million barrels per day domestically. Consumption is more than 20 million barrels per day, of which 5.5 million come from OPEC.

Guess what happens if we manage to get about 12 million barrels per day ? Shortages, lines at the pump, etc. Eventually fuel prices will rise to the point where supply equals demand. Where does that happen ? I don't know, maybe $9, 10, 12... per gallon. I can tell you it won't be $2.80 per gallon or even $4.50 per gallon.

If Americans were willing to pay $6-7 per gallon and curb domestic use, synthfuel from domestic sources would become viable. No one is going to make profits like the overseas oil companies, but we would become secure.

No it isn't my generation that is going to 'fuck over' the 'soft generations' of all ages. It is the stubbornness, obstinance, incompetence and ignorance of the 'soft generations' that are fucking themselves over. All they want is cheap and easy. The economic competition between the emerging nations and Europe, Japan and the US has already started.

These emerging nations and Japan and Europe understand it isn't about cheap and easy and soft, it's about coming out on top to maintain a decent lifestyle in the future. It isn't an entitlement, it isn't a given, it's about being better than the other guy. Do any of you want to admit the younger generation in China, Europe or Japan is faster, smarter or better than you ?? If they are, then you only have yourselves to blame for what happens.

If a few of you want cheap and easy for a few years until the US turns into an uncompetitive and increasingly poorer nation you're can think that. I'd rather see the bunch of you get exported overseas to someplace where life really is hard (I can imagine some of you farming and fishing in Bangladesh.) and trade you for a bunch of immigrants who want to build our nation for the 21st century. I already work with a few of those immigrants turned Americans.

Remember, the US was built by hard working immigrants who became Americans. What is sad is that someone like Vit, who isn't that popular here, probably understands better what it means to make use of opportunity and work hard than a bunch of you who were born in the US.

So let the flaming begin.

[AZN_ZX2]

Well I wish more politicians would be more honest about their opinions but public relations is a problem there.

And Vit makes dumb comments sometimes, but when he's serious he always makes good points about things

[JonsZX2SR]

Well you didn't have to quote my entire post, I've already thrown down the gauntlet, but I do appreciate your comments.

I'm waiting for comments, both constructive and whining, about the cost benefits of car pooling.

Seriously, there are plenty of people here who were born in the US who are applying themselves, ZXTwo2, Ablexus, SoCal, Jen, Drew, (and plenty more I didn't have space to include) plus some who weren't born here or born to immigrants, such as Vit. I don't know about your background, Azn, but I understand where you are coming from.

My point is being born American isn't an entitlement to success, each generation needs to work for it. If some of you are lazy, then your f*ck'd because someone else is going to take and eat your lunch before you even figure out what is happening. A few of you are a sorry lot...

[AZN_ZX2]

Sorry about that, fixed. I wish I could carpool, but I work retail so its not often there is someone that has my shift and lives somewhere along the roads I go. I live a bit out of the way, but I drive like a grandma so my gas mileage is better. I'm going to be converting all of our houses light bulbs to LED i think.

[PHeller]

I'll never be a politician. I say what I feel. I don't care if everyone winds up hating me here, I'll say what I been saying for 2 years. I hope the price of gasoline goes over $6 per gallon. Hate me if you wish (I really don't give a crap about what people think) but read on...

Why do I say this ? Because it is more important to reduce petroleum consumption and dependencies on foreign sources than it is to have cheap fuel. Most people don't have the will to reduce gasoline use. Subsidizing it and making it cheaper will only increase demand.

Considering what past generations went through, learning how to deal with $6 per gallon fuel isn't much of a hardship.

So let the flaming begin.

I would agree with you completely.

I personally am ready for the challenge if I knew that in 20 years I'd be better off.

I'm in college, I live with my parents, and really don't spend money frivolously. During the school year I don't work much, but I'm gradually becoming more involved in local government, especially now with my internship experience.

I one respect, I'm jealous of home owners that get to have a garden, and live off the grid using alternative forms of energy. I really admire those pioneers of our generation.

I'm also seriously jealous of people who are good at math. I suck horribly at math. I'd love to be an engineer. I've got the creative mind and personal skills to be a good engineer, but I could never get through school.

I do however, hope to bring my creative mind into my career. Wether it be my interest in progressive ideas in planning/zoning/development or alternative mass-transit, I really want to see these ideas come to the forefront of not only politics, but American life in general.

I think just being involved in our discussions is saying alot for the character of people in my generation. We have no reason to be discussing such deep things on the internet, but the fact that we do is promising that our younger generations will make differences in their lives by listening to what the "wise people of internet" will discuss. This is not to say that every person has the best ideas, but it is the interest in developing your own ideas, derived from other great minds, is really what strengthens our society.

[PHeller]

Granted, we probably need more hard workers to actually bring ideas to fruition, but I'm sure that will develop as more of us (myself included) get out into the workforce.

My girlfriend is a doer. She'll do something the same way, no matter how dumb it may be, just because "thats how you do it". She prefers to avoid thinking too much about how to do something, and would rather, just get it done. She's not exactly the deepest mind, nor is she very creative.

I on the other hand, like to debate, like be creative and think of alternative ways of doing things. I often prefer to use my mind over my body.

Hopefully we both develop some traits of one another, because I'm a bit lazy, and she's a bit stubborn.

[Buster]

I completely agree. If you look at the Japanese they have far fewer resources than the US and a higher population density. Yet their work ethic, and gov't and personal spending habits enables a healthier economy that can invest overseas to support their economy. The same is true for Europeans who pay over $9 per gallon for fuel and higher taxes compared to the US.

The problem is much worse than people imagine, because there are companies and individuals in US companies that are investing wisely, building business both here and overseas. What people don't understand is these US businesses are propping up our economy, rather than undermining it.

If the attitude of some individuals and the gov't is to subsidize cheap everything for the masses it will undermine the positive side of the US economy and make our strong sectors globally uncompetitive through demands for taxation.

Too many people want cheap goods, cheap fuel, cheap hosues, etc. They never learned to comepete and be successful. Instead they complain that the more successful guy got the attractive, intelligent girl, the organized couple got the nicer home and the annual vacation, the better car, etc.

Some people are looking for the socialist tooth fairy to set things right, give them the nice girl, the good home, an infusion of intelligence they didn't develop in high school, cheap gas, an easy life etc., etc., etc.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the socialist tooth fairy doesn't exist. Life is meant to be a struggle. we need to re-learn this as Americans, get organized and get back to being doers.

Imagine during WW2 if the complainers whined about rationing and that winning a war is too difficult ??

I agree with this post 100%. You make great points about the mindsets of the lazy who look at government as a solution rather than the problem (socialists, usually Democrats, Hillary/Obama's platform defined) and the hardworking, self-responsible innovators of our nation.

Yes, if our present nation's society was in place during WWII, we would not have a nation today. Germany and Japan would share a rule for the entire world, unless one rose up against the other.

[CraZx2ing]

I know I've made some modifications to my lifestyle to accommodate higher gas prices. I also know that if they continue to rise to the point of doubling I'll continue to modify my lifestyle so I can continue to live how I want.

I am one of the lucky few on this site, it seems, that has a great higher paying job AND my commute time is roughly 8 minutes. Because of this, I've justified driving my 16 mpg Jeep for the time being. My gas costs are less than $35/wk. This, to me, is still a bit high and I will be getting a scooter in the near future to drive during the weekends and to the store and such. The Jeep will just be used for driving to work and for bad weather days.

About the subject of immigrants busting ass... My company employs a WIDE range of immigrants for our factory floor. I get to manage the floor of anywhere from 30 to 50+ people everyday. (Generality!!!) Guess who the lazy people are who only want to get by while doing as little as possible and then complain and quit because everything is too hard? The American born people. The vast majority of the immigrates who I lead will do the most difficult, crazy, and tiring tasks. They will complete them to the best of their ability, and then come back for more.

Personally, I had an easy time moving up the ranks from a machine operator to managing the place in less than 3 years. Why? Because I am an ass buster. My father raised me to break my back for my family. I repay him by doing it. I started working at 14 and haven't stopped. I've been through much rougher situations than gas prices going up and I'm not going to let it stop me from succeeding and building an amazing life for my family.

Another fun one for me to watch is my wife. She was born and raised in Vietnam. I've been there twice now, I've seen the poverty and the lack of hope. I know where she is coming from. She just got her first job 3 weeks ago at my company on the production floor. Guess who's currently the hardest ass buster there? She is. She went from making $80/mo and living in poverty to making $1500/mo of completly disposable income. What does she want to do now? She wants to bust ass twice as hard, learn everything, and work double the hours. Her end goal is to be rich with a great family and gain her status as an American Citizen.

I wish every American would bust ass like this in their own way. Maybe not just pounding hours and working for the man, but with their thoughts and creativity. Everyone has something to contribute to bettering our generation. They are all just too busy playing GTA4 right now ;).





OH! and to keep with the thread... I saw on the news last night that talks are picking up on drilling the gulf. They want to make it so it can be done closer to land. Don't quote me but I think they said they want to change the laws from 150miles from Tampa Bay to only 50 miles making it more attractive to the oil companies. :(

[PHeller]

I agree with this post 100%. You make great points about the mindsets of the lazy who look at government as a solution rather than the problem (socialists, usually Democrats, Hillary/Obama's platform defined) and the hardworking, self-responsible innovators of our nation.


Though McCain supports a gas tax holiday. Which is like saying to all those whining conversvative, V8 driving, SUV and truck owners from rural areas who drive 30 miles to work everyday, "that's ok, big government will save you from high gas prices."

If anything Obama's platform is more about telling people on the subject of fuel prices, "deal with it!" He apposes lowering gas taxes, instead he proposes raising them to better fund alternative fuels and mass transit.

Republican Conservatives, or at the least the ones I know, tend to be the types who say "DONT CHANGE A DAMN THING!" They want gas prices to stay the same, marriage to stay the same, abortion laws to stay the same, HEAVEN FORBID SOMETHING CHANGE! When something does change, these people tend to blame it on someone else. THOSE A-RABS ARE STEALINGS OUR OIL! WE SHOULD NUKE EM! The only reason these types of personalities benefit our society is by working hard to gain as much profit for themselves in the name of capitalism. They aren't trying to better society, they're trying to get rich!

I'm sure if you look at the owners of some of the top 10 most innovative new companies in the last decade, the majority of those pioneering thinkers are LIBERALS.

Sure, Democrats normally support funding increases in welfare and social programs, but the Republicans always seem to get themselves involved in a war that easily makes up for it.

Personally, I'd rather see the money spent at home, if at all.

[JonsZX2SR]

The one change I would make is describing pioneering thinkers as PROGRESSIVES rather than LIBERALS. The Liberals like to take Progressive ideas and use them as their own.

If we expect big government to save us from problems, who will save us from big government ??

[ImCrazy]

Dude if you think people not driving at all is viable you are insane. If you want to have a job you need to drive unless u live in the city which fyi has a higher cost of living in case you didn't know.

[JonsZX2SR]

Dude if you think people not driving at all is viable you are insane. If you want to have a job you need to drive unless u live in the city which fyi has a higher cost of living in case you didn't know.

Dude do you have a brain and can you read... I suggested that people look into alternatives such as car pooling to make costs equivalent to gasoline at $2.80 per gallon with no car pooling.

People have to be seriously deficient to keep arguing people need cheap fuel because they won't explore other alternatives.

[PHeller]

The one change I would make is describing pioneering thinkers as PROGRESSIVES rather than LIBERALS. The Liberals like to take Progressive ideas and use them as their own.

If we expect big government to save us from problems, who will save us from big government ??

Progressives. Liberals. Democrats. Whatever the case may be, innonvators tend to be those who don't limit themselves to doing something because it may or may not be a good investment, or because that's how its always been done.

I hate when people act as though Democrats or Liberals (or Republicans and Conersvatives) are the root of all our problems. Political parties do not dictate what you can and cannot become. To say "socialists never did anything" is ridiculous! I'm sure there were some people who were communists that made contributions to society, dispite their political beliefs, just as their have been capilists who ruined the lives of many getting rich.

Our nations problems are not the fault of any one group, nor are we successful because of one group, political or social.

[JonsZX2SR]

I disagree. Innovators tend to try things that are practical both from a technical and financial standpoint. The deside is to see things implemented on as large a scale as possible. If impractical this becomes difficult.

I think the responsibility for are nations problems are not distributed equally. Those who stand in the way, dig in their heels to resist chnage or look to others to solve things are not part of the solution. They are part of the problem in that they become obstructions.

I'm not afraid to say that. Change is inevitable. Blindly resisting change is a problem, not a solution.

I don't think either the liberals or conservatives would ever save us from big gov't. It is the thinkers and agitators in our midst that (tries to) keep gov't honest.

When fuel cost $0.30 per gallon about 35 years ago, $4.25 per gallon was unimaginable, even to Europeans. The same is true for cost of iron, copper, nickel, various foodstuffs, etc. Yet somehow most of us have learned to cope with rising costs.

Fuel went from $0.30 to 0.60 to 1.25, then to the $2.20 range and even exceeded $3.00 a few years ago. (I have fuel records dating back to 1991 if anyone wants finer detail.) People adapted, there were shifts in the economy. More important consumption patterns changed, people learned to use fuel more efficiently.

What is different in 2007-8 if that there are new large consumers, such as China and India adding to global demand. This isn't going to change, we aren't going back to 1995 or 1975.

The rules have changed, the US has to play to win... I still contend the path to success is to be the first to shift to synthtic fuel from coal, oil shale or biomass and sell the technology. Arguing among ourselves or a demanding plenty of cheap fuel won't get us there.

[ImCrazy]

I still have a problem paying $3.89 for something thats really worth maybe $2.00

[JonsZX2SR]

If you couldn't get any or lines at the pump were long it would be worth a lot more than $4.00 to you. The part you don't get, is the $3.89 per gallon price is the reason that supplies are plentiful.

[ImCrazy]

If you couldn't get any or lines at the pump were long it would be worth a lot more than $4.00 to you. The part you don't get, is the $3.89 per gallon price is the reason that supplies are plentiful.

I think your a little too gullible on this subject Jon usually you have solid ideas and points but this time I think your a bit off base. When gas was 2.83 a year ago there were no lines........... There is plenty of fuel the Saudis know it. :wiggle:

[JonsZX2SR]

First, due to the falling value of the dollar and increased demand by the Chinese, the price of petroleum today is considerably higher than the petroleum to make last years $2.83 per gallon petrol. The continuing decline in the dollar makes that $2.83 fuel cost at least $3.65.

Second, you don't understand supply side economics. As long as the customer is willing to pay more with a marginal drop in sales, supply will continue to increase. with higher prices marginal operations (refineries) become profitable, increasing supply.

Economic Supply Curve (http://www.netmba.com/econ/micro/supply/curve/).

Increased demand and willingness to pay more for petroleum by the Chinese has shifted the supply curve to the right as illustrated in the link. To maintain supply prices need to increase.

Economic Demand Curve (http://www.netmba.com/econ/micro/demand/curve/)

If the consumer were only able to pay $2.90 per gallon today the supply would be smaller than last year due to higher crude oil prices alone. So demand would have to shrink to avoid shortages. There very well might be limited supplies and lines. It is the high prices that consumers are willing to pay, combined with high volume that continues to make increasing the supply profitable.

Price Elasticity of Demand (http://www.netmba.com/econ/micro/demand/elasticity/price/)

The problem right now is demand is too elastic. Prices increase for various reasons and consumers just keep on buying. Suggestions to limit consumption by means such as car pooling, driving less are met with scorn. Instead some consumers call for hand waving action by the gov't to make prices fall. What we really need is for demand to turn inelastic and with a 30% or more real drop in consumption.

Supply and Demand (http://www.netmba.com/econ/micro/supply-demand/)

What allows prices to climb higher is that despite complaining, Americans just keep buying petrol.

If consumers were able to curb demand to the point where unsold petrol was liing up in the pipelines and storage tanks, the suppliers would reduce refining and cut prices.

If we (collectively) want to send a message, the best thing we could do is carpool, reduce overall real consumption 30% and see what happens. It will never happen. A reduction of consumption and imports would be a real boom to our economy.

My concern is what happens when suppliers just decide they are out to teach Americans a lesson, leave Iran alone, get out of Iraq and stop backing Isreal. We don't control the majority of the oil supply, foreigners do. What happens if an embargo against the US is put in place.

My fear is many Americans will start fighting among themself for scarce oil.

For that reason I support home grown synthfuel from coal, oil shale, biomass even if it costs $6-7 per gallon. If you look at the supply side curve linked above, increased prices mean increased supply.

Let the barbarians of the world bash each others head for oil. American needs to opt out.

[ImCrazy]

^ I under stand economics just fine took two classes last year got A's in both.

I support home grown fuel for sure. It wouldn't need to cost that much tho I have heard we are the worlds largest resource for coal how cool would it be if we could convert that and then screw the saudi's.

[JonsZX2SR]

Then certainly you understand how the supply curve is shifted to the right and how the Chinese willingness to pay above market is driving up prices.

When demand exceeds supply, prices are set by those willing to pay the highest prices, not those wanting to pay the lowest prices.

I've worked the technology, the cost of startups, etc. Synthfuel from coal using a Fischer-Tropsch process would cost a minimum of $6 in today dollars to break even and wouldn't produce any kind of meaningful volume in less than 5-7 years. Plus you are going to have to convert refineries from petroleum in stages to avoid disrupting supplies.

People can do all the hand waving they want, there is no magic bullet. Imagine if all the money we wasted in iraq had been invested in coal and oil shale recovery and converstion facilities.

[ImCrazy]

Then certainly you understand how the supply curve is shifted to the right and how the Chinese willingness to pay above market is driving up prices.

When demand exceeds supply, prices are set by those willing to pay the highest prices, not those wanting to pay the lowest prices.

I've worked the technology, the cost of startups, etc. Synthfuel from coal using a Fischer-Tropsch process would cost a minimum of $6 in today dollars to break even and wouldn't produce any kind of meaningful volume in less than 5-7 years. Plus you are going to have to convert refineries from petroleum in stages to avoid disrupting supplies.

People can do all the hand waving they want, there is no magic bullet. Imagine if all the money we wasted in iraq had been invested in coal and oil shale recovery and converstion facilities.

I agree 100%

[ImCrazy]

Then certainly you understand how the supply curve is shifted to the right and how the Chinese willingness to pay above market is driving up prices.

When demand exceeds supply, prices are set by those willing to pay the highest prices, not those wanting to pay the lowest prices.

I've worked the technology, the cost of startups, etc. Synthfuel from coal using a Fischer-Tropsch process would cost a minimum of $6 in today dollars to break even and wouldn't produce any kind of meaningful volume in less than 5-7 years. Plus you are going to have to convert refineries from petroleum in stages to avoid disrupting supplies.

People can do all the hand waving they want, there is no magic bullet. Imagine if all the money we wasted in iraq had been invested in coal and oil shale recovery and converstion facilities.

Maybe if it created a lot of income for our country it would be better in the long run id rather pay $6 for home made shit that buying from those Saudi's

However gov't could throw a few billion at the infrastructure so we could keep it @ like $4.50-5.00 They wasted a few billion on iraq.

Better Idea yet Invade Iraq over throw the gov't and over take the oil supply. Charge China $5.00 a gallon and charge americans $2.50. Use those profits to pay for the tech to get the synfuel going...... < i realize this is a fantasy that just won't come true.

[JonsZX2SR]

I agree with much of what you said, but disagree with pricing... If developed, synthfuel should be sold at a reasonable ROI above cost, including costs of the distribution chain. There is no way it is going to cost less than $6 per gallon unless a new unknown technology is discovered.

No matter how much people want cheap fuel, it shouldn't be sold below cost because you screw up the supply curve, demand is higher than it should be and people want more, and you're losing money on every gallon.

People get addicted, conservation goes out the window and everyone whines when you have to raise prices. Start at a small but reasonable ROI and let the market do the work.

the big benefit is our military would no longer be dependent on foreign energy supplies. I have my doubts Americans would pay $1.00-1.50 more for synthfuel. Howver if we adopted European pricing it could be come attractive.

You could put an export tariff on synthfuel, but anyone buying petroleum will have cheaper fuel, but have to put up with global instability. The payoff would come in 40-50 years when oil is running out and people start fighting. Of course at that point you could build overseas conversion plants and refineries, whereever there is coal (China, UK, Germany, Russia.) The patents would have run out so licensing would have limited value.

Europe would probably jump on this and do a better job than us... I'd rather see the world shift away from oil anyway. The benefit to the US is a dramtic reduction of imports and we get to extend our own oil supply a bit longer.

At some point we do nmeed to stop putting carbon into the atmosphere, though.

[Gregersonke]

I'm going to go out on a limb. Higher gas prices are changing the economy in some good ways and some bad ways. I think that if it goes too fast we will end up changing demand too fast and oil will ultimately end up falling as fast or faster than the run up as investors run away from oil while demand ramps down.

This said, I also had predicted it happening. I'm still predicting 200 a barrel by 2010 This will be the turning point of oil when congress decides to open up the coastlines of FL and CA to oil drilling rather than the ANWR. I'm betting that the govenator will be in the planning stages of opening up CA coast within the next 6 months. JEB Bush would be stupid not to have something in the planning stages ready to go today. All either needs to do is work the public opinion. Which isn't going to be hard at 8 dollars a gallon of gas.

2010 is also when many of the new car models, energy generation facilities hit the market first generation. This where energy efficiency really becomes a feasible solution for both business and consumer customers.

By 2012 it won't be uncommon for vehicles to have a minimum gas mileage of 30mpg. It also won't be uncommon to find vehicles capable of getting 100mpg either.

[JonsZX2SR]

Interesting read... Will more drilling mean cheaper gas ? (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1815884,00.html?cnn=yes)