Democrats of Republicans

[ChrisK]

I pulled this from another forum, very interesting.

Original Thread: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/anything-goes/7478-democrats-republicans.html


It was only 2 years ago. Remember the election in 2006?
Thought you might like to read the following:
A little over one year ago:


1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.


Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:


1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3.50 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate
(stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.


America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!


Remember its Congress that makes law not the President. He has to work
with what's handed to him.


Quote of the Day........'My friends, we live in the greatest nation in
the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to
change it.' -- Barack Obama




Part 2:


Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find these statistics
enlightening and amazing.
The Tax Foundation - U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2008 http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html


Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008
Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250


Both democratic candidates will return to the higher tax rates


It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think
Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever.
If Obama or Hillary is elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush
tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories
above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with
Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even
know what happened.




PART 3:


You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much?
Read this:
Boy am I confused. I have been hammered with the propaganda that it is
the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us. I have
included the URL's for verification of all the following facts.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens
each year by state governments.

Verify at: FAIR: Immigration and Welfare http://tinyurl.com/zob77


2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs
such as food stam ps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens

Verify at: cis http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal
aliens.


Verify at: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html


4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary
school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a
word of English!

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html


5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the
American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.

Verify at: CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.


Verify at: CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)



7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.


Verify at: CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)


8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare &
social services by the American taxpayers.

Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRAN SCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused
by the illegal aliens.
Verify at: CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)


10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's
two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular,
their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the
US


Verify at: CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html)


11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens
that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens
from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth,
heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.


Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht


12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of
mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average
cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'


Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf


13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to
their countries of origin.


Verify at: Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare? (http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm)


14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex
Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States.'


Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml



The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

[Buster]

Great post.

Many people need to see these facts that go unreported by the media.

[ChrisK]

yeah I've learned just to stay away from the media, they can be very persuading. I don't know how accurate this is, I just figured I'd post it. I haven't been able to go to those links yet (at work)

[Buster]

Illegal aliens cost us more than we can fully account for.

They're overcrowding emergency rooms, driving up costs for the rest of us, they have even caused some hospitals to have to close because they can't afford to give out so much free service. Unfortunately (in this case), our hospitals' policies of not turning anyone away in an emergency is actually causing their downfall.

They have, in some states, been granted in-state tuition at colleges while legal citizens must pay higher tuition costs. This also limits acceptances of students who are here legally. They're also draining public schools of resources.

There are many crimes committed by illegals. They're overextending police forces who find themselves unable to respond to everything now (I am personally a victim of this). There have been many cases of illegals being in car accidents. Obviously, they are uninsured, so it has caused financial loss to many citizens who were hit. Plus, insurance rates go up for all of us.

Because some companies hire them because they'll work cheaper and under the table (no taxes paid on them), it obviously takes work away from citizens and lowers the pay rates across the board in certain industries.

They're allowed to get welfare. That is unacceptable. They are not legal citizens!

Also, liberally-minded cities, organizations and governments have begun printing and providing resources in Spanish. Many of the Spanish-speaking-only people here are illegal. The majority of legal immigrants who care enough to abide by our laws and are here because they want to be Americans for the right reasons rather then using the nation for money only actually take the effort to assimilate and learn English since they're planning on staying here. This is another unnecessary and large waste of tax dollars.

[ChrisK]

completely agree. There is a shitload of illegals here, they come to MS and can stay forever because our poor ass state doesn't have the power to catch them. And if you do catch them and send them back, they are back in the country basically overnight.

I think businesses should have a huge penalty for hiring illegals. Maybe then illegal aliens will be more weary or coming here to work, due to people being afraid to hire them.

[capitalcrew]

There are penalties to businesses hiring illegals. It made quite a stir recently.

Build a big fence, and make it open season. If they hop the fence, drop them where they stand.

[ChrisK]

that would work too. but i dunno about killing them, give everyone that lives by the board some sweet tazers though ha

[capitalcrew]

No no. Shoot them. They are coming into this country illegally.

[af3ll]

Aww Buster has a new friend!

[SoCalZX2]

Aww Buster has a new friend!

Care to chime in on the topic at hand instead of bad mouthing a member of the site?

Any rebuttle to the OP? Just curious.

[capitalcrew]

He doesn't post anything useful anymore. Ignore it.

[af3ll]

Care to chime in on the topic at hand instead of bad mouthing a member of the site?

Any rebuttle to the OP? Just curious.
Follow your own advice.

[af3ll]

He doesn't post anything useful anymore. Ignore it.
Explain.

[SoCalZX2]

Follow your own advice.

LOL nice deflection buddy. Problem with your deflection, is I don't have anything to rebuttal against. I'm a republican, and I see nothing wrong with the OP.

I believe instead of just removing troops from Iraq we need a good strategy to complete that. I believe that a much larger economic strain on this country (instead of Iraq) are the illegals.

So, as I stated before, did you plan on actually adding to the conversation? Or are you only going to make witless remarks, showing what you have no opinion on... or at least one worth putting into type.

[capitalcrew]

Explain.

You're doing a fine job explaining it yourself.

[PHeller]

Care to chime in on the topic at hand instead of bad mouthing a member of the site?

Any rebuttle to the OP? Just curious.


Bad mouthing? What wrong with being friends with Buster?

The only reason you took it negatively was because you saw it that way.

Merely pointing out that one member is agreeing with another isn't bad mouthing anyone.

[PHeller]

Back on topic,

I love how everyone makes such a big deal about illegal immigration, yet no-one does anything about it.

If you really wanted it to stop we'd have 4x the amount of border patrol agents and the fines for hiring illegals would be far more severe. Those fines should make up for the tax dollars that illegal don't contribute to our country.

[capitalcrew]

Paul, WE can't do anything about it. If I could personally do something more than vote, I sure as hell would. Like I said, big fence.. lots of guns. Dead mexicans.

I'm in no position of power though.

[PHeller]

You'd pay just as much for the big fence and lot of guns as you would from the mild loss in our economy that illegals contribute.

[capitalcrew]

I'd be more satisfied with it though.

[SoCalZX2]

Bad mouthing? What wrong with being friends with Buster?

The only reason you took it negatively was because you saw it that way.

Merely pointing out that one member is agreeing with another isn't bad mouthing anyone.


LMFAO, did anyone seriously think that afl was being nice to chrisk? Bad mouthing could maybe have been a bad choice of words, but how about sarcastic support?

There are VERY few people that like what buster has to say on political subjects, and if you think afl was simply stating that buster had another friend, you're not very bright.

As for being on topic, there is little that citizens can do about immigration. We can voice our opinion, and thats what we're doing. Do you not see ILLEGAL immigration as a problem? As a very large financial strain on this country and it's economy?

Do you think that those numbers are fake? I mean seriously, in just 2 years the financial strain of illegals on the economy over shadows Iraq. How is 300 BILLION A YEAR a mild loss, and 500 Billion in 5 years such a drag on the economy?

If you're going to make such wile accusations as to what is a larger financial burden on the country, you might wanna use a calculator next time. 338.3 billion a year for just 2 years is greater than the entire financial strain of the last 5 years in Iraq. Or is my math wrong?

Yes, there would be a financial strain to find a good means of enforcing against illegal immigration, but in the long run, finding a good means to stop the problem is less of a financial strain than just letting it continue.

[af3ll]

Bad mouthing? What wrong with being friends with Buster?

The only reason you took it negatively was because you saw it that way.

Merely pointing out that one member is agreeing with another isn't bad mouthing anyone.
That's exactly what I meant.

[SoCalZX2]

If that was REALLY what you meant, there are much better ways to portray that.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

[ChrisK]

LMFAO, did anyone seriously think that afl was being nice to chrisk? Bad mouthing could maybe have been a bad choice of words, but how about sarcastic support?

There are VERY few people that like what buster has to say on political subjects, and if you think afl was simply stating that buster had another friend, you're not very bright.

As for being on topic, there is little that citizens can do about immigration. We can voice our opinion, and thats what we're doing. Do you not see ILLEGAL immigration as a problem? As a very large financial strain on this country and it's economy?

Do you think that those numbers are fake? I mean seriously, in just 2 years the financial strain of illegals on the economy over shadows Iraq. How is 300 BILLION A YEAR a mild loss, and 500 Billion in 5 years such a drag on the economy?

If you're going to make such wile accusations as to what is a larger financial burden on the country, you might wanna use a calculator next time. 338.3 billion a year for just 2 years is greater than the entire financial strain of the last 5 years in Iraq. Or is my math wrong?

Yes, there would be a financial strain to find a good means of enforcing against illegal immigration, but in the long run, finding a good means to stop the problem is less of a financial strain than just letting it continue.

I think the media has ALOT to do with people's views on the war in IRAQ. The media likes to control the people's opinions, which is exactly what they are doing. They haven't focused a lot on illegal immigration, or when they have they didn't compare the costs to the costs in iraq. i say let our military finish what they are doing and concentrate on stopping illegal immigration.

[AZN_ZX2]

Well as for the crime rate of illegal immigrants, it is because many more immigrants are in poverty and with poverty comes crime. White populations are more evenly distributed among poor middle class upper class as opposed to illegals who are more lower class.

[af3ll]

I think the media has ALOT to do with people's views on the war in IRAQ. The media likes to control the people's opinions, which is exactly what they are doing. They haven't focused a lot on illegal immigration, or when they have they didn't compare the costs to the costs in iraq. i say let our military finish what they are doing and concentrate on stopping illegal immigration.
My views on this war have to do with actually deploying in support of it and talking to people who have actually been over there. We don't need to be in Iraq and we never should have invaded.

[Buster]

Back on topic,

I love how everyone makes such a big deal about illegal immigration, yet no-one does anything about it.

If you really wanted it to stop we'd have 4x the amount of border patrol agents and the fines for hiring illegals would be far more severe. Those fines should make up for the tax dollars that illegal don't contribute to our country.

I write my representatives, blow up their fax machines, sign petitions and try to turn in offenders (including employers) yet Congress ties their hands. I'll also vote people out of office who want open borders and sanctuary cities.

I do what I can do, but it's going to take a revolution and major reform to scare Congress into action. They even approved a fence on the border, which the President signed but they won't appropriate the funds to complete the project.

You're right, we need VERY severe penalties for employers who enable them to make a living in this nation, but we'll have to talk or scare Congress (with our votes) into that.

[Buster]

Well as for the crime rate of illegal immigrants, it is because many more immigrants are in poverty and with poverty comes crime. White populations are more evenly distributed among poor middle class upper class as opposed to illegals who are more lower class.

You are right to an extent, BUT...the point is that they should not even be in our nation illegally.

[Buster]

Bad mouthing? What wrong with being friends with Buster?

The only reason you took it negatively was because you saw it that way.

Merely pointing out that one member is agreeing with another isn't bad mouthing anyone.


It's still pointless.


No, his 4th-grade contribution didn't offend me. ;)

[ChrisK]

Pulled this from the mazda forum. This guy says it perfectly. And Yes I agree with him 100%.


I started in at the beginning of this thread, then sat back without replying cause I'm really sick of this bullshit. My fault for not saying which party and why. We're in the middle of a terror war, and we can sling BS both ways forever and it still won't give either side the outcome, cause it's not over yet. Same with the economy. Point fingers all day and we won't have a solution cause it isn't solved either. But one party has my confidence and the other doesn't. There's a few reasons.
Edit: OK, it's just about all the reasons.

The OP's question was Democrats or Republicans, remember? Here's my preference and why. I'll try to keep it all without the dogma, from my own perspective and based on shit that has happened to me and this country while I watched in disbelief. Some good, some bad, it all affects the way I think and vote.

A while back, I could give a shit about politicians. Then in 78 I joined the USAF. While Carter slashed the military budget to the bone, letting pay rates stand still while inflation raged and expecting us to be a fighting force with no parts for weapons systems, the new type of enemy was emerging. Terrorist attacks in the middle east and American hostages in Iran for what seemed an eternity, 444 days, until the very day Reagan took office.

Just that fact tells you something about what the Iranians knew they could do and for how long, and when it would absolutely have to stop. American military personnel were still getting spit in their faces in those days. E-1's and E-2's in California were living in their cars and shacks made from cardboard boxes. Still, we were all willing & ready. As it is today, a GI would respond to mobilization with "Just gimme 5 minutes to put my uniform on." It was fucking shameful how low the military was considered. But up till then, no country dared fuck with the US, and so the average American just didn't give a shit.

Even then, I hadn't attached a political party to the "anti-war", actually anti-military activists. Forget the fact that during Vietnam, 90 percent of servicemen were drafted, they were still labeled baby killers by these "anti-war" people. Just cause it isn't PC to say it today, don't think it hasn't been said. I've heard it myself. The anti-military hardcore activist has still got the same misnomer, calling themselves anti-war. Today they have to say "Oh, but I fully support the troops" cause whole towns would kick their asses if they didn't. The democratic party has made sure the baby killer shit got squashed fast this time around, but an ex-General turned anti-military, Democrat Congressman John Murtha did his best to carry it on in slightly another flavor with pre-judgement comments about Marines in Haditha. Didn't someone just post about erosion of rights under republicans?

Anyway, Carter used his executive power to send in a poorly equipped force, too small and with no "Plan B" to rescue the hostages, which failed dismally. If you have to do warfare you better be ready to do it right and succeed. Above all, that takes money. Man, the Carter days really woke me up to political awareness. As U.S. Presidents go, he grew a mean peanut. Politically, he still does fucked up shit today, IMO. Carter and the anti-military... Democrats.

Thank God, Reagan days followed. That was when I started really seeing the glaring differences in the two parties. INSTANTLY in January, the first thing he did was raise military pay by 9%. Two more raises followed that year, totalling 28% that came to about 35% when you consider the succession of raises over the year, and finally bringing the E-5 pay I was making at the time above qualification for food stamps. That's right. I had been in 10 years and we qualified for fucking food stamps. I was so insulted I refused to apply for them. Reagan went into action rebuilding the shabby military. Parts appeared, jets got better, so did tools and quality of life for GI's. It isn't just about the pay, but respect as well. He gave it to us, and asked the rest of the country to as well.
Many did, I finally felt better than a third class citizen.

Operations in Grenada & Lybia (where, BTW, the French so gracefully paid us back for our efforts on their behalf in Vietnam... NOT!) both successes. What I saw was a defense machine built like never before. We all knew we were finally ready to take on anybody, and so did the Soviets. Remember, the Soviets? Gone now. We called him "Ivan". Reagan was a Republican.

George H. W. Bush took it from there, continuing to give the military correct priority, which payed off in spades as the most professional and best equipped all volunteer force the planet has ever seen. They routed (that word means "chased") the third largest armed forces in the world out of Kuwait and back to their own country. As it was reduced to maintaining the Iraq no-fly-zones, we all knew we'd eventually have to do something about Saddam, but that was the U.N. Removing him from Kuwait was all we were supposed to do. But we knew it could easily be done. We had the equipment and the backing and the respect ... of another Republican.


1993, Clinton's era begins. One of the things that begins is a reduction in force of the entire US military. It's decided that 50% is a nice round number. I remember talk of being able to sustain action in two theaters at once. Doesn't look like that plan quite worked out, does it? But the budget was balanced. Whoopee.
Anyway, as US jets patrolled the Iraqi no-fly zone, they kept fucking with us, locking SAMS onto our jets, which then would promptly be removed by our firepower. It was tit-for-tat like that till I retired in January of 1996. Meanwhile, and starting in February of 93, the second month after Clinton takes office, the terror attacks begin:

1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.

1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
- See, this is where I really started getting pissed off, because like I said, I had retired in January of 96, but the unit I retired from was the boys who were occupying Khobar Towers that day. Those were not only my comrades in the USAF, but many of the dead (19) and wounded (150) were friends, many of them close. The same families who had been my community. My kids had played and gone to school with their kids, ya know? The response? Nada. Go after them? Nope. Clinton's response was "Let the Saudis handle it". We all knew what that would mean. When you have to say "What The Fuck?" to something like that, your world changes completely, and you develop serious animosity for incompetent assholes who don't react or prepare properly. Talk all you want about having and acting on bad intelligence. This asshole had all the intelligence he needed and did not act. What's worse? -

1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.

1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.

2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.

Americans being killed, 6 incidents in 7 years. 7 fucking YEARS!!! Clinton does nothing to stop Al Queda. Nothing. Gee fucking wiz, this asshole was a Democrat. WHAT a coincidence.
This is when I realize that the Democratic party is like the kid in the neighborhood who gets his ass kicked by kids smaller than him all the way from kindergarten to high school just cause he's afraid to fight back. I think maybe Carter went to see Hamas because he was dropping off his lunch money. If there was a magazine featuring only Democrat Presidents, it would have more pussy in it than Penthouse.

George W. Bush takes office in 2001, and extremists forget there's a limit to what they can do and when. He says what he means, then does it. The Democrat anti-military begins to cry "unjust war!" 10 minutes after they all publicly back the action in Iraq. Well, it worked in the 70's, and now it's like the revived democrat theme song. Unjust war my ass. About fucking time is more like it. I wish everyone would shut the fuck up about the deficit. Winning a war costs money. Same as plunking down the bucks to mod your cars. Speed costs money, how fast you wanna go? But in war, you don't have the option of just going stock. We didn't pick this fight but we're in it. We absolutely have to kill them all, every last one, and I don't give a shit what it costs.

Problem is, George W. is stuck with the post drawdown military, and they're getting really tired from all the fighting and rotating back and forth they're doing. Even the draftees from Vietnam didn't have to serve so long in hostilities because the military was huge back then, and that was a 10 year long war. You know you can tell they're winning, cause there's almost no more news coverage. Blood is the only thing that gets any airtime, and there isn't very much blood lately, is there? Just about all the mainstream news is anti-military liberal run, and everyone knows it.

I've lived enough life and seen enough liberal democrat bullshit to know it for what it is. I'll never vote for pussy-ass democrats, cause I've never seen any one group that was so fucking bad for this country for so long. I swear it seems that everything they do or stand for just fucks things up.

[Buster]

Very good post.


I see SO many similarities to the conditions of today and the conditions of President Carter's term, as well as many between Carter and Obama themselves with their stands on issues, that if we elect Obama, a complete repeat of history could occur. Iran causing problems in the world, targeting Israel. Oil prices and fuel shortages.

If we elect Obama, I fear we'll be in the same trouble with Iran as we faced in the Carter years, our fuel prices will skyrocket again (even further) and we'll be in a lot of trouble.

Only THIS time around, Iran has nukes.




Here's a piece I wrote leading up to the 2004 Presidential election. It is well-researched and based on (little-known) facts with a little opinion thrown in at the end:


During the 1990's, very little emphasis was placed on national security by President Clinton. As results of his approach to protecting the nation, the FBI, CIA and other National Security did not share information and were rarely invited to brief or discuss their findings face-to-face with the Commander-in-Chief. In fact, when a small airplane crashed into the White House lawn in 1995, the joke around Washington was that it was James Woolsey, the head of the CIA trying to get Clinton's attention.

Osama bin Laden held a view that any American presence in a Muslim nation is evil and should be ended. This view inspired his first attempted attack of the Aden Hotel in Yemen. Bin Laden's objective was to murder the 100 US Marines staying there while in transit through Yemen by bombing the hotel. These troops were still in the region after the first Gulf War. The attack failed thanks to some observant security guards and only managed to kill a few hotel workers. Clinton's response to the attempted murder of our troops was to WITHDRAWL them from the area. Although bin Laden did not succeed in his plan to kill the "infidels", his plan was not a failure. He was surprised to discover how weak this newly-elected American president was and how easy he could achieve his goals of eliminating Americans from Muslim nations worldwide. This planted the seed of murder into a man who already hated Americans and the American lifestyle with every ounce of his being. This day in 1992 was the day that our greatest enemy declared war on America. Over the next few years, Osama bin Laden would proceed to bomb and kill Americans where he saw them. It did not matter if the Americans were troops, ambassadors or simply tourists, to him they were simply American infidels who deserved to die. Murders took place in embassies, hotels, night clubs, ships, military bases...any place where Americans presided. In 1993, the World Trade Center bombing was financed by Osama bin Laden and planned by Ramzi Youtef, who was the #1 most-wanted Terrorist at the time, a young man who longed to be remembered as the most "gifted" terrorist in history, even if it someday required martyrdom. Again, Clinton showed weakness after the attack, only inspiring bin Laden further. Bill and Hillary Clinton never even visited the bombing site of the WTC. He was scheduled to give a radio speech as he was given the news and inserted an entire 20 seconds of mention to the attack. He didn't seem to care or realize that the nation was at war. To him, this attack was a matter for the NYPD.

Osama's most evilly ingenious plan was called Operation (or Project) Bojinka. The word Bojinka is slang in many dialects for the word "explosion". Bin Laden was the mastermind and financial means for this atrocity. This plan was to be a well-planned out, calculated, enormous attack that would rock the entire world. Hijacked airliners were to be the weapons. Eleven to be exact. Additionally, assassinations of key world leaders were to occur at the same time as the airliner attacks. January 22, 1995 would be the day we'd be fighting for and remembering in infamy rather than September 11, 2001 if this plan would have been successful.

Phase 1 - Kill Pope John Paul II while he visited the Philippines. A suicide bomber was renting an apartment on the parade route of the Pope. A Catholic priest's robe had been ordered and even tailored for the suicide bomber. As the Pope was to get out of his limo, the "priest" would approach the Pope with an extended hand to greet the Pope. During the handshake, while the Pope was outside of his bulletproof limo, the bomb would be detonated.

Phase 2 (occurring concurrently with Phase 1) - This was planned out by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. He used the services of Ramzi Yousef, the young and talented terrorist and bomb-maker. Yousef had developed and successfully tested a plan to smuggle bombs through airport security in Asian airports by using plastic bomb components and placing metal components in the soles of his shoes so they passed under the metal detectors that only went down to the ankles. They would map out a schedule of 11 flights where terrorists could smuggle these bombs (made in eye contact solution bottles with a modified $10 Casio watch serving as the detonator) and then get off the planes at a stop. They only included flights with a stopover, no direct flights where they'd become victims themselves. This also negated the need for USA visas. The terrorists never left Asia while the flights would continue to America with the planted, inconspicuous bombs onboard. The bombs would have been timed to go off at the exact same time in all 11 planes over the Pacific Ocean, killing nearly 4,000 Americans.

Phase 3 (also occurring at the same time as Phases 1 and 2) - A suitcase bomb would be smuggled onto a commercial airplane. The plane would be hijacked and crashed into the CIA HQ in Langley, VA. The main hijacker, Abdul Hakim Murad was a trained pilot.

Another plot the men were cooking up would have involved hijacking of more airplanes. The Sears Tower (Chicago, Illinois), The Pentagon (Arlington, Virginia, the Washington Capitol (Washington, DC), the White House (Washington, DC), the Transamerica Tower (San Francisco, California), and the World Trade Center (New York, New York) would be the likely targets. In his confession with Filipino investigators, Abdul Hakim Murad said that they could not recruit enough people to implement other hijackings prior to the foiling of Operation Bojinka.

How it was foiled - On January 6, 1995, close to the day of the attacks, two Pakistani men, one being Yousef and the other Murad, coordinating the Pope's murder had some trouble with the bombs they were building in the apartment in the Phillipines. There was smoke pouring out of their room and they ran out of the apartment complex, telling staff they were just playing with firecrackers in their room and had some trouble with them. A female security officer on her way out the door after her shift was over knew about firecrackers and thought there was too much smoke pouring out of the room to be caused by simple firecrackers. Off-duty, she went to their apartment room and discovered a mini bomb lab as well as itineraries of the attack day, plans and 17 passports with different names, including an alias of the infamous Ramzi Yousef, most likely to be used by the hijackers. The men were chased by police and security. Murad was caught, Yousef escaped. The White House would not even react to this thwarted plan. To Clinton, it never happened. Even when the Pope and Bill Clinton HIMSELF were targets, he still didn't get it!

Bin Laden had decided to save the plans for a later date since his plans were discovered. The plans, although scaled down, were used on 09/11/01. The scariest thing about Osama bin Laden is his patience. He and his operatives will lie low for years if necessary to pull off a surprise, calculated attack as we saw on 09/11/01. The timing of the attacks was the most dangerous aspect of them. Most terrorists and suicide bombers will rush into situations sloppily and set off bombs, killing themselves and many unintended people in the area, including Muslims. Al Qaeda and OBL plan their attacks so that Muslims are not in the area. One popular time to attack and set off bombs in the Middle East-located attacks has been during mid-day Muslim prayer time. All Muslims leave the buildings and meet in the streets to pray at the same time, leaving Americans or any other non-Muslims in the buildings. It's a perfect time to bomb. His intent is to kill non-Muslims and this is a foolproof way to ensure ONLY non-Muslims are murdered.

Just because we have not heard from Osama bin Laden in 3 years does not convince me that he's finished attacking us. We need to continue to hunt him down and keep him on the run UNTIL he is captured. This is why re-electing George W. Bush was a life and death decision for America. We cannot return to the liberal mindset on national security as we suffered through in the 1990's. John Kerry would've been just as lax on defending our nation as Clinton, as proven in his speeches that told of turning our troops over to the UN and responding AFTER we're attacked! The additional fact that Kerry would not disclose his "secret plan" on fighting terrorism makes it appear that he has given as little or LESS thought on the subject as our former president. As history tells us, Osama bin Laden will wait for years to fulfill his plans of murdering Americans. His attacks on 09/11/01 had been the plans to be used on January 22, 1995 which had been planned for about 2-3 years prior. The 09/11/01 murders were 9-year old plans. Does bin Laden have any more plans in waiting for us? We can never know. The ONLY recourse for America is to pursue him until he is DEAD. President Bush will do just that.



While we have still not found OBL, we ARE still pursuing him and he has not been able to organize another attack on us since 09/11/01, many have been foiled though (the bombing of the L.A. Airport is one example). Of course our successes are not given much attention. Even this week, we have taken troops from Iraq where they are no longer needed and transfered them to Afghanistan to assist there.

My thoughts on John Kerry to seem to translate over to this election with Obama. They seem to be running identical campaigns. Obama has gone from his ultra-liberal stances in the primaries to reversing those statements and trying to transform himself to a less-liberal candidate in the General election. He's backtracking and contradicting himself daily, with plenty of gaffes and lies (my uncle was in Auschwitz *lie*, I was influenced by racial marches in Selma *when he was 4-yo*, "bitter people cling to guns and Bibles", his 20 years in a racist anti-American church, relationship with former terrorist Bill Ayers, shady real estate dealings, etc.). He has the same anti-American elitist attitude and favors Europeans to Americans (his speech this week about being embarrassed because Americans don't speak Spanish and French when they visit us here). I feel this campaign will go down in flames because Obama simply looks like the same-old politician that Democrats have been putting up in campaigns for decades. The only change he represents is his changing views depending on who he's speaking to.

[Buster]

I made this:
;)


http://pentdego.com/prentjes/77f1da.jpg

[af3ll]

It's still pointless.


No, his 4th-grade contribution didn't offend me. ;)
If I'm in the 4th grade then you're in what the 5th? You have no room to talk.

[ChrisK]

If I'm in the 4th grade then you're in what the 5th? You have no room to talk.

I believe post #31 gives him room to talk. You post something as good as that and then maybe you will have room to talk.

[af3ll]

You just got here new guy. You have no idea what he's all about.

[af3ll]

I made this:
;)


http://pentdego.com/prentjes/77f1da.jpg
Another thing that shows how smart you really are. How can any one believe a candidate would come in to ruin America? He's not Muslim but if he was is that a bad thing? Not all Muslims are bad.

[SoCalZX2]

Another thing that shows how smart you really are. How can any one believe a candidate would come in to ruin America? He's not Muslim but if he was is that a bad thing? Not all Muslims are bad.

How can anyone be naive enough to think that ANY candidate doesn't have their own agenda.

It's a simple thought process that the Dems think that Reps are ruining America and visa versa... So in essence, how can you think that McCain would come into the office to ruin America?

(granted, you're not making ant photochopped pictures, but the statement still stands)

[ChrisK]

You just got here new guy. You have no idea what he's all about.

dude i've been around teamzx2 for years. I was around when zxtuner.com only had like 3 parts to choose from.

just because I just signed up on the new site doesn't mean i'm new. actually i've been without my zx2 for like 3+ years now.

[af3ll]

Is it sounding like I'm supporting Obama? I'm definitely not. I'm still way undecided.

I really don't believe Obama would come in and say here ya go Iran come and bomb us which is what it sounds like some of you are saying. I think with McCain we're not going to get much change. I don't really want my troops staying over in Iraq anymore than they need to. I've been opposed since day 1 to it.

[af3ll]

dude i've been around teamzx2 for years. I was around when zxtuner.com only had like 3 parts to choose from.
Well if you've been here so long then you would know what I mean.

[ChrisK]

he doesn't bother me, but then again noone really does.

[SoCalZX2]

Is it sounding like I'm supporting Obama? I'm definitely not. I'm still way undecided.

I really don't believe Obama would come in and say here ya go Iran come and bomb us which is what it sounds like some of you are saying. I think with McCain we're not going to get much change. I don't really want my troops staying over in Iraq anymore than they need to. I've been opposed since day 1 to it.

I don't think anyone WANTS us to be there forever... But I'm really tired of people thinking that you can just yank the troops out and hope for the best. Thats ludicrous!

I'm also sick of Iraq being the only thing people here are discussing. There are much larger issues IMHO that threaten this country than a branch of the war on terror.

You may say that all your beliefs come from talking to people that you know that have served... but thats really hard to believe considering the amount of poor media coverage there is for the war. I do agree, we need to leave, but we need to make sure it won't come back and bite us worse than it has.

So, lets stop harping on Iraq as if it's the only reason to vote for a DEM because he wants to just pull out and hope for the best. Just my opinion though.

[af3ll]

You may say that all your beliefs come from talking to people that you know that have served... but thats really hard to believe considering the amount of poor media coverage there is for the war.
How can you say that? You know I do the military thing for a living right? I've been deployed for nearly a year of my career. I think I would have a better idea than just media stuff.

[SoCalZX2]

My Uncle served 2 tours as a coreman(sp?) and my father served in the first military event there.

I do appreciate your service, just because you've spent time over there, doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about whats going on over there.

You have a better idea than someone in my position (I won't even try to deny that), but I still don't believe that just because you're over there gives you all knowing powers of the true intentions of being there.

I really hate to sound cold and callous as I'm pretty sure I do... But its your perspective of disagreeing the whole time, but still being over there. Do you think those that didn't want to go will EVER agree with going? Even if given real reasons, and proof to back them? Highly doubtful, because they don't believe in the cause, so they'll never believe in being there.

Again, I really do appreciate your service, it gives me the right to chose not to be military, and to raise my family in security. So I hope you at least don't take what I'm saying as blasting directly at you.

[Buster]

Is it sounding like I'm supporting Obama? I'm definitely not. I'm still way undecided.

I really don't believe Obama would come in and say here ya go Iran come and bomb us which is what it sounds like some of you are saying. I think with McCain we're not going to get much change. I don't really want my troops staying over in Iraq anymore than they need to. I've been opposed since day 1 to it.


No, you just blindly oppose the President on everything without hesitation because you hate him.

He could give you 3 wishes and you'd use your first to wish him dead, blowing the rest of your wishes.

That picture was a joke. Guess they're as foreign to you as honesty is to Obama.

He IS the only candidate who wants to sit down with an insane dictator and compromise though, so my picture has a slight basis in truth.

You can't negotiate with terrorists. It's been tried, it has always failed.

[Buster]

Well if you've been here so long then you would know what I mean.

If you hate me so much, we DO have an ignore feature.

[af3ll]

No, you just blindly oppose the President on everything without hesitation because you hate him.

He could give you 3 wishes and you'd use your first to wish him dead, blowing the rest of your wishes.

That picture was a joke. Guess they're as foreign to you as honesty is to Obama.

He IS the only candidate who wants to sit down with an insane dictator and compromise though, so my picture has a slight basis in truth.

You can't negotiate with terrorists. It's been tried, it has always failed.
I don't hate President Bush. I just disagree with some of the things he does. I thought he was great after the September 11th attacks.

If I had 3 wishes I wouldn't use it to have him dead. I would use them on things to benefit me.

What is really wrong with talking to Iran's president? I'm not saying we have to do anything he says but I don't see it as a problem. Trying to bully around a country is not cool in my book.

[af3ll]

If you hate me so much, we DO have an ignore feature.
I don't hate you. That's ridiculous. I normally disagree with what you have to say though.