White Supremacists See Hope in Obama Win..

[2000zx2chik]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/08/national/main4331869.shtml

or

They're not exactly rooting for Barack Obama, but prominent white supremacists anticipate a boost to their cause if he becomes the first black president. His election, they say, would trigger a backlash - whites rising up, a revolution of sorts - that they think is long overdue.

He'd be a "visual aid," says former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, in trying to bring others around to their view that whites have lost control of America. Obama's election, says another, would jar whites into action, writing letters, handing out pamphlets rather than sitting around complaining.

While most Americans have little or no direct contact with white supremacists, organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center keep close tabs; the law center estimates some 200,000 people nationwide are active in such groups. These observers think the prospect of a white revolution is fantasy.

White supremacists - many call themselves nationalists or "White activists," with a capital W - have had limited political success: Duke served in the Louisiana Legislature. And the public has periodically been unsettled by their public events, like the effort by uniformed Nazis to march through Skokie, Ill., the annual Aryan Nations meetings in Idaho and elsewhere or the FBI's clashes with armed white supremacists in several Western compounds.

Richard Barrett is a 65-year-old lawyer who traveled the country for 40 years advocating what he perceives as the white side in racial issues - like his January rally in Jena, La., to support a white teenager who hung a noose in a school yard.

Barrett is convinced Democrat Obama will defeat Republican John McCain in November.

And that could cause an upheaval, Barrett, a leader in the Nationalist Movement, told The Associated Press in an interview at his rural Mississippi home.

"Instead of this so-called civil rights bill, for example, that says you have to give preferences to minorities, I think the American people are going - once they see the 'Obamanation' - they're going to demand a tweaking of that and say, 'You have to put the majority into office,"' Barrett said.

Across the United States, some white supremacists are saying an Obama presidency could create a racial backlash that will give their groups a boost.

Barrett is evasive about his ideology and tries to keep reporters from using "buzz words" to describe him. He doesn't call himself a white supremacist, although the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center do.

The law center tracks the Nationalist Movement, the Klan and like-minded groups from its Montgomery, Ala., headquarters. The center's "Hatewatch" newsletter reported in June that some neo-Nazis, Klansmen and anti-Semites are saying an Obama presidency could prompt a race war, which many on the "radical right" believe whites would win.

Although not all white supremacists agree, "large numbers of these people really seem to think that an Obama election would benefit them hugely," Mark Potok, the center's intelligence director, said in an interview. He called that view "essentially a fantasy."

Duke, the former Klan leader, posted an essay on his Web site in June titled, "Obama Wins Demo Nomination: A Black Flag for White America."

Obama "will be a clear signal for millions of our people," Duke wrote. "Obama is a visual aid for White Americans who just don't get it yet that we have lost control of our country, and unless we get it back we are heading for complete annihilation as a people."

Jason Robb, a Harrison, Ark., attorney who represents the Klan's Knights Party, describes himself as a "white nationalist."

"It doesn't really matter if Obama wins the election or McCain wins the election," Robb said in an interview. "Neither of them are going to try to fight to preserve the white race or heritage."

Robb said, however, that Obama's election could prompt more whites to get involved in politics by distributing pamphlets or writing letters to editors.

Although the South has had more racial violence than most of the country, Randy Blazak, a sociology professor at Oregon's Portland State University, says white supremacists live all over the United States. Blazak, who has studied skinheads for two decades, calls white supremacists a counterculture, not a movement, contending the latter term overstates their numbers.

Blazak said white supremacists thrive on fear of changing race relations, the women's movement and gay rights. Blazak said white working class people in particular long for a "Leave It To Beaver" society.

"Those were the 'good old days' for straight, white males. But for everyone else, it was a pretty raw deal," Blazak said.

Barrett, a New York City native who moved to Mississippi in 1966, said the Nationalist Movement has members in 36 states, but he won't say how many. He compares today's skinheads to the minutemen of the American Revolution.

"The Revolution, if you will, in 1776 brought the 13 colonies together against the king. And the same thing can happen now against Martin Luther King, with the 50 states," Barrett said, if Obama's elected.

Barrett says he is a Democrat but won't say whether he's voting for Obama. He'll only say he won't support McCain, Libertarian Bob Barr or independent Ralph Nader.

Charles Evers, brother of Medgar Evers, the Mississippi NAACP leader killed by a sniper in 1963, chuckles when told about Barrett's assertions.

"See, Richard doesn't really mean what he says. It's popular for him to say it. That's the way he makes a living," said Evers, who hosts a talk show on WMPR-FM in Jackson. "Same as Jesse Jackson, some more of our black revolutionaries who make a living off of keeping things emotional."

Although a longtime Republican, Evers supports Obama. He says the Democrat is more qualified than McCain.

Evers, whose office has photos of him with Robert Kennedy, Richard Nixon, George W. Bush and other politicians, said he sees broad, multiracial support for Obama, even in parts of the South where the white establishment dug in to try to preserve racial segregation decades ago.

"I think we're past that stage," Evers said. "I don't think the majority of white people are thinking that way anymore."

Kim Edwards of Matteson, Ill., a black woman who traveled to Mississippi with a racially mixed group so her son could play in a baseball tournament, is more skeptical. Edwards worries that extremists want Obama to be elected so they can assassinate him.

"I'm really concerned for his safety," said Edwards, who plans to vote for Obama. "I'm concerned that once he gets in office that he won't be recognized as an American president."

However, former Mississippi Gov. William Winter, a white Democrat who served on President Clinton's commission on racial reconciliation, doesn't foresee widespread white backlash if Obama is elected.

"We are a diverse country," said Winter, who supports Obama. "We are made up of people of every conceivable racial background."

[JonsZX2SR]

They are certainly entitled to their opinions as long as they don't propose harming people who disagree with them. That's what free speech is about.

On the other hand free speech enables anyone who disagrees with them to debate them and publically present how their ideas are flawed.

I say let them propose what they want, others will oppose them. We'll have a big heated discussion and one group will get angry when they find they can't get the other side to see things their way.

Meanwhile the news media will blow everything out of importance and proportion until everyone gets sick of all the news coverage.

[TheCrazyGuy]

If Obama were elected and then assassinated, that would be the absolute worst thing for our country. Race relations would be set back hundreds of years and may be permanently irreparable. That white supremacists think that whites would "win" in the ensuing race riots betrays their absolute ignorance to the fact that NO ONE would win in any ensuing clash. Blacks would never trust whites again, and in the minds of many whites, the formerly only marginally valid "white guilt" effect would be validated and reinforced.

[RedRacer99]

i'm not racist, but i think blacks bitch 'n moan too much about their past. considering that whites were slaves too and the africans SOLD them to us, things aren't as bad as they were. things were segregated but that's not our fault... that was half a damned century ago... stfu and get over it. oh and obama will most likely get assassinated cuz some hick will rant 'n rave over what his "grand-daddy" taught him. i have my own opinions... that make me racist? so fuckin' be it. i try to get along with everyone but if people (EVERYONE) do not want to be stereotyped... quit fitting them!

[mechtech]

Which month is National 'White History" month?
And where is the 'Miss White America" beauty pageant?
How come in Fire Departments and the military blacks only have to get 85% of the score of a white person to achieve the same rank?

[TheCrazyGuy]

Which month is National 'White History" month?
And where is the 'Miss White America" beauty pageant?
How come in Fire Departments and the military blacks only have to get 85% of the score of a white person to achieve the same rank?

I can't answer any of your other questions but I know that in my branch of the military, minority status has nothing to do with promotion rate. Points are points and everyone gets promoted regardless of their skin color. Racists DO get in, but are quickly weeded out and rarely last longer than their first enlistment.

I've observed that the officer corps is a bit caucasian-heavy, but that is due largely in part to the fact that minorities generally take their college degrees and do something else than seek a commission in the Marine Corps.

[mechtech]

TCG - Then there has been a change because of the uproar a short while back.

[AZN_ZX2]

I go to school in Philly and I rarely if ever hear a black person saying oh this isn't fair my people have been repressed for so long.

Keep in mind that there are people still around that have experienced racial violence and its hard for them to get over it.

There's a customer who's a Korean war veteran that comes into Whole Foods and whenever he is there he'll sit in the cafe and stare at me for hours. Does it bother me? Yeah it does a lot, but imagine seeing your friends being shot by a bunch of Koreans.

I think not black people say that black people use history as an excuse too much when they are just tired of black people bitching and moaning. I agree somewhat though. The nappy headed hoes thing get over it. Fire the guy continue with your lives.

People are too uptight. They forget that black white asian doesn't matter everyone's a person and that's what matters. I make racial jokes all the time, but I do it in appropriate places and I don't go after just one race. I make fun of women, jews, men, asians, blacks, whites, etc.

[SoCalZX2]

Keep in mind that there are people still around that have experienced racial violence and its hard for them to get over it.


Yes, but it's rarely those that actually have a right to talk that are the ones talking. Even some of those that are talking (Sharpton, Jackson etc...) are using the topic to further themselves... not their community.

I just have a problem with those that are too lazy to help themselves and want the Gov't to fix things for them. I don't care about the color of ones skin, even the damn lazy redneck white fuckers need to get off their own ass and better themselves...

I don't condone anything being done to a president because the color of his skin, but I wouldn't at all be shocked if several attempts were made on his life if Obama wins the election.

[AZN_ZX2]

Yes, but it's rarely those that actually have a right to talk that are the ones talking. Even some of those that are talking (Sharpton, Jackson etc...) are using the topic to further themselves... not their community.

I just have a problem with those that are too lazy to help themselves and want the Gov't to fix things for them. I don't care about the color of ones skin, even the damn lazy redneck white fuckers need to get off their own ass and better themselves...

I don't condone anything being done to a president because the color of his skin, but I wouldn't at all be shocked if several attempts were made on his life if Obama wins the election.

Yup you're right. I'm just saying people should keep that in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama got assassinated, but I'm hoping it won't happen and I don't think it will.

[RedRacer99]

like i said, if you don't want to be stereotyped, quit fitting them...

[JonsZX2SR]

Yes, but it's rarely those that actually have a right to talk that are the ones talking. Even some of those that are talking (Sharpton, Jackson etc...) are using the topic to further themselves... not their community.

I just have a problem with those that are too lazy to help themselves and want the Gov't to fix things for them. I don't care about the color of ones skin, even the damn lazy redneck white fuckers need to get off their own ass and better themselves...

I don't condone anything being done to a president because the color of his skin, but I wouldn't at all be shocked if several attempts were made on his life if Obama wins the election.

You hit the nail on the head. It isn't just the blacks who are complaining that the gov't should do things to help them out, it's poorly educated white males, hispanic immigrants and other non mainstream WASP groups. Some individuals within any group work to better their place in life, while a greater number whines and looks for handouts.

Probably the 2nd largest group of complainers are poorly educated white males, rednecks or otherwise. They see job oppotunities going to better motivated individuals named Zhang, Chen, Govochenko, Fabilotti, etc. and complain. Meanwhile these qualified immigrants are becoming US citizens and the offspring of the complainers are squandering educational opportunities.

Hispanics are another vocal minority, with some hard workers and their share of the complainers. The Jewish and various Asian communities have both hard workers and complainers.

125 years ago signs saying "Irish Need NOT Apply" were common in businesses. We haven't come that far in 125 years, just changed the ethnic group we dislike.

A failed attempt on Obama's life either now or if he were elected president with strong evidence linking it to a white supremist group could bring the country together.

People do have their personal biases, but actions of a small violent organization tend to bring people together. For example, the violence and killings of civil rights organizers in the South during the 1960's brought people together and acclerated rather than discouraged intergration.

[CraZx2ing]

I'm just sick of going to wal mart and seeing a 300lb grandmother with her 400lb daughter rolling around in those electric carts with the 200lb 15 year old grand daughter loading the cart up full of junk food and soda just to complain about gas prices ad how long they have to "stand" in line and then pay the $300 bill with that damned food stamp EBT card. It's even better if you happen to follow them out the door and see they are parked in a handicap spot. Oh yah. I love that.

Check it out some time... You'll see it from multiple races there. I tend to go after work around 1am. Maybe I'll snap a picture for those fortunate enough not to shop at wal mart.

[AZN_ZX2]

I'm just sick of going to wal mart and seeing a 300lb grandmother with her 400lb daughter rolling around in those electric carts with the 200lb 15 year old grand daughter loading the cart up full of junk food and soda just to complain about gas prices ad how long they have to "stand" in line and then pay the $300 bill with that damned food stamp EBT card. It's even better if you happen to follow them out the door and see they are parked in a handicap spot. Oh yah. I love that.

Check it out some time... You'll see it from multiple races there. I tend to go after work around 1am. Maybe I'll snap a picture for those fortunate enough not to shop at wal mart.

Yeah I see people in Whole Foods with food stamps all the time. And for those of you who don't know it's a bit more expensive to shop there than other grocery stores...

[JonsZX2SR]

...you forgot the part where the electronic benefits card is overdrawn for the month and they swear up and down it must be a mistake. They've got $200 or more at the cashiers, the line is getting impatient and they figure if they complain loud enough the cashier will let them through.

[AZN_ZX2]

Yep I've had that happen and I've had people leave their groceries. If it was a dollar or two I'm more than willing to help the customer out if they are friendly and polite. But I refuse if the person lacks respect.

[OGreaTFuzzY1]

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama got assassinated within the first few months. I actually see it coming. Some rednecks or KKK members get together and set up a plan. You all can say goodbye to what we have now cuz once it happens there will prob end up being a war between the whites and the blacks. Obama might have some good ideas but the states aren't ready for a black president especially a Muslim.

~Fuzzy

[AZN_ZX2]

A war between blacks and whites? Come on lets be realistic now... If Obama is assassinated, maybe a few small outbreaks of violence, protests, a few riots, but I doubt it will be as bad as you make it seem.

[TheCrazyGuy]

especially a Muslim.

~Fuzzy

Do people seriously still believe this?

[JonsZX2SR]

A war between blacks and whites? Come on lets be realistic now... If Obama is assassinated, maybe a few small outbreaks of violence, protests, a few riots, but I doubt it will be as bad as you make it seem.

...I'd have to agree. More likely I would expect a war between intelligent and reasonable people of all ethnicities vs. rednecks and others with racial chips on their shoulders.

The rednecks would be surprised and shocked when an overwhelming number of white people reject their ideas and decide enough is enough. The guys behind the Oklahoma City bombings over a decade ago were shocked that a huge majority of Americans did not see them as heroes but rather viewed them with disgust.

Assassinating a president, regardless of background, is an attack on the constitution. I think a majority of Americans would see things that way first.

[AZN_ZX2]

I always feel somewhat smarter when Jon agrees with me lol

[JonsZX2SR]

Americans are pretty smart as a group. When we pull together we can overcome obstacles.

It is divisive types who hurt America, regardless of whether they call themselves white supremacists, rednecks, PUMA's black separaistists, etc.

Regardless of who wins the election, Americans need to band together and recognize it is us against the world.

[Y2KSE]

The nuts who wants to live in all white country, they can go to Russia. :P

[RedRacer99]

or kentucky or very southern indiana, lol. that's why i choose to go to holiday world over 4 hrs away than six flags chicago, less than two. people are a bit more friendly in the south

[doyoucompute]

or kentucky or very southern indiana, lol. that's why i choose to go to holiday world over 4 hrs away than six flags chicago, less than two. people are a bit more friendly in the south

I live in the 5th "whitest" state, at 95.2% caucasian.

Holiday world is a great little place, by the way.

[Onespeed]

Why does everyone assume it would be a white person or group that assassinated Obama? Remeber who killed Malcolm X? (and probably MLK too).
I think some of the black factions of this country would be just as upset and have just as much to lose if Obama becomes president. All at once, 90% of their arguements would be null and void and they would have to find something else to do for a living.
Either way, his election as President would create more racial tension than would his defeat.

On the political side, I simply don't think Obama is qualified to lead a small business, much less the "most powerful country in the world". What has he done, what has he seen, what experiences does he bring to the game? Nothing I can think of.

Now, if Colin Powell would have run for President a few years back, I think he would have won in a landslide. If he could have chosen Condi Rice as his VP, we would have had several "firsts" all at the same time. Unfortunately for us, fortunately for him, he knew way too much about how things worked in our highest office and wanted no part of it.

[JonsZX2SR]

A lot of good points. people argue that minorities need to work hard, take responsibility and pull themselves up, just as many of the white mainstream have done.

Both Barack and Michelle Obama are good examples, and they do refute the arguments that affirmative action and set asides for minorities have to be open ended. If you compare the motivation of hard working black and hispanics from the Caribbean or parts of Latin America, you often find the hard working types have more in common with hard working caucasian groups and less with lazy types looking for hand-outs.

These could be minority groups or similar neer-do-well Caucasian complainers.

[TheCrazyGuy]

Either way, his election as President would create more racial tension than would his defeat.


EHHHHH! Wrong. You think that blacks in America, after a very qualified, highly articulate black man was defeated by an old white man belonging to a party at its least popular point in 30 years, will think this is their country?

You think that things in this country could possibly get any worse? Do you think that if Obama is elected, and things get better, that racist whites will still fault him for their betterment?

I agree with you about Powell but I think that there is no "winning" in the eyes of blacks and many of the world population if Barack is defeated.

[Onespeed]

Oh, so you saying it's wrong makes it so? Sorry, I didn't know that you were the freakin' oracle!

What I am saying is that the black activists groups would have no legs to stand on any longer and angry white people would think they actually have something to be angy about.
Both sides would nit-pick the shit out of everything BHO did or said, then point the finger at the other side, depending on how it affected their stance. The media would do their part and whip every little issue into a huge racial stand-off. I see it spiralling out of control real quick.

If he loses, sure people will be upset, but as soon as another Hollywood teen princess gets a DUI the media will forget about and the issue will die.

[5whiskey]

I am amazed that race and racism is still even being discussed today. I know it still exists in people MUCH older than us... but it's 2008 man. I haven't tracked this thread at all, but still I am amazed (and I'm not saying it's anyone on this boards' fault or that you are racist) that the topic is still even in discussion. I know it's discussed by the media, but I'm still trying to figure out exactly why it's even an issue?

My old man was racist, and frequently dropped the "n" word. I grew up hearing it, and I haven't said it, thought it, or tolerated it since I was 20. Literally gents I was raised on a tobacco farm and I personally thought racism was on it's way out in the mid 90's in my "rural, hick, redneck, agriculture-based" county. I do know that perception generally tends to mirror your envioronment... so maybe I have been lucky to live in a place that has, for the most part, dissavowed racism. The whole purpose is really this... I'm dying to know, are there still parts of the country that are honestly racist? I know there are still people (white and black) left over from another era that hold on to racism, but as a whole are there large populations out there that hold on to this? I ask because if I'm being niave I want to stop being niave about it.

I personally will vote against Obama for several reason, none of them being the color of his skin. Notice I said vote "against Obama"... and not for McCain. BTW, if anyone wants to argue the "race" card for me voting against Obama... that has nothing to do with it. I would drive from Raleigh to NY right now to vote for Colin Powell if it would make him president.

Now, if Colin Powell would have run for President a few years back, I think he would have won in a landslide. If he could have chosen Condi Rice as his VP, we would have had several "firsts" all at the same time. Unfortunately for us, fortunately for him, he knew way too much about how things worked in our highest office and wanted no part of it.

I agree 100% on both of them (Colin and Condi) This is precisely why epic president rarely come along... most of those who could truly excel at it are too smart to even consider the job IMO.

[TheCrazyGuy]

Oh, so you saying it's wrong makes it so? Sorry, I didn't know that you were the freakin' oracle!

It's okay. I know I'm not an old black lady so it's not obvious. You are forgiven.


What I am saying is that the black activists groups would have no legs to stand on any longer and angry white people would think they actually have something to be angy about.
Both sides would nit-pick the shit out of everything BHO did or said, then point the finger at the other side, depending on how it affected their stance. The media would do their part and whip every little issue into a huge racial stand-off. I see it spiralling out of control real quick.

If he loses, sure people will be upset, but as soon as another Hollywood teen princess gets a DUI the media will forget about and the issue will die.

A) Black activists will have no leg to stand on if Obama wins, true. I think that you think white racists' effects on America's politics are overblown.

B) Both sides nit-pick the shit out of each other, now. How will this change?

C) Whether or not YOU pay attention to teen princesses in the media doesn't mean that others are the same way.

Oracle ouuuut.

[Onespeed]

It's okay. I know I'm not an old black lady so it's not obvious. You are forgiven.



A) Black activists will have no leg to stand on if Obama wins, true. I think that you think white racists' effects on America's politics are overblown.

B) Both sides nit-pick the shit out of each other, now. How will this change?

C) Whether or not YOU pay attention to teen princesses in the media doesn't mean that others are the same way.

Oracle ouuuut.


Wow, are you a reporter? Only reason I ask is becuase you have misrepresented everything I have said in your feable attempt to counter it.

Now I know how politicians feel when they make a point and someone else "breaks it down" for them and screws it all to hell. Good job!

[Fordboy]

ok with all this talk of collin powel, what do you think would of happened if obama picked clinton as his vp. such as mccain chose a woman for his vp. i think that would of been a strong duo. having both of the democratic nominiees run together. obama would pick up her supporters and vice versa. now i would of voted for clinton just because yes she is a woman but she comes with loads of experience, for instance her husband being a past president. but not only that think about it when bill was in office times were looking up and we had peace treaties across the board. no wars, no high gas prices, most of americans were happy. so why not vote for the wife if the husband did so well. i just think in the end hilary got screwed

[SoCalZX2]

ok with all this talk of collin powel, what do you think would of happened if obama picked clinton as his vp. such as mccain chose a woman for his vp. i think that would of been a strong duo. having both of the democratic nominiees run together. obama would pick up her supporters and vice versa. now i would of voted for clinton just because yes she is a woman but she comes with loads of experience, for instance her husband being a past president. but not only that think about it when bill was in office times were looking up and we had peace treaties across the board. no wars, no high gas prices, most of americans were happy. so why not vote for the wife if the husband did so well. i just think in the end hilary got screwed

This will be interesting if Buster reads this ;)

Smoke and mirrors comes to mind... Nothing was really as good as it seemed back then (save for maybe gas prices since thats such a big concern for people, but even then the were still rising @ close to the same rate each year like they always have.

[TheCrazyGuy]

Wow, are you a reporter? Only reason I ask is becuase you have misrepresented everything I have said in your feable attempt to counter it.

Now I know how politicians feel when they make a point and someone else "breaks it down" for them and screws it all to hell. Good job!

Wow, are you paparazzi? Only reason I ask is becuase [sic] you have misrepresented everything I have said in your feable [sic] attempt to get a rise out of me.

Now I know how celebrities feel when somebody gets all up in their face using antagonistic language and the celebrity doesn't bite and screws the paparazzi's day all to hell. Good job!

[Fordboy]

This will be interesting if Buster reads this ;)

Smoke and mirrors comes to mind... Nothing was really as good as it seemed back then (save for maybe gas prices since thats such a big concern for people, but even then the were still rising @ close to the same rate each year like they always have.

why does buster not like hilary.

i mean i just wonder if america is ready for a black president, why couldnt they be ready for a female president. but now mccain has a female vp running with him, which may be interesting racking in alot of female voters that were once clintons

[SoCalZX2]

No he doesn't like the clinton's in general lol. Neither do I really. But to say everything was great under Clinton is a misprint of the truth. (I don't have all the stats and links, I'm sure someone else does).

[Onespeed]

Wow, are you paparazzi? Only reason I ask is becuase [sic] you have misrepresented everything I have said in your feable [sic] attempt to get a rise out of me.

Now I know how celebrities feel when somebody gets all up in their face using antagonistic language and the celebrity doesn't bite and screws the paparazzi's day all to hell. Good job!


Wow... nevermind.

[Onespeed]

but now mccain has a female vp running with him, which may be interesting racking in alot of female voters that were once clintons

I don't think Clinton had as much of the female vote as she, or everyone else, would assume. Sure, she was strong in that area... but she lost a lot of respect of women everywhere when she allowed her husband to have a public affair, lie about it, then half-ass admit to it, then try to brush it away like it was no big deal. The man was legally impeached for it, afterall.

I think a lot of women see that as letting her husband get away with something that most would not, simply because of who he is and how he could help her bid for future success.

If she let her husband off that light, which probably wasn't easy, what else would she be willing to compromise for her own political success? Probably some things that would be a lot more detrimental to the public good, but a lot easier for her to swallow (no pun intended).

[Gunslinger]

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama got assassinated within the first few months. I actually see it coming. Some rednecks or KKK members get together and set up a plan. You all can say goodbye to what we have now cuz once it happens there will prob end up being a war between the whites and the blacks. Obama might have some good ideas but the states aren't ready for a black president especially a Muslim.

~Fuzzy


obama isnt muslim, his christian. i met him before he tried to run for president. he has always been a great speaker, and motivater for people. his name comes from the fact his father is african. back then, most children automaticly took there fathers last name. ironicly, he had only met his father once.

yes,, things were better when the clintons where in office. some people say its because of previous president polices. thats crap. the man paved the way for a alot of shit. and he got lazy ass americans of their ass and made them work by re-tuning well-fare and public assistance. the bushes never gave a damn about middleclass. and they certainly dont give a damn about you are me. enless you got money

you dont like black people who do not work and bitch and moan about how fuck the world is. and who always want to blame whites for it..
news flash everybody. hard work black people dont like them either. there are bad apples out there. and i grew up with them. those said blacks that irritate you so much, are like any other uneducated person who is affraid of what they dont understand. of course if i wanted to sterotype, i could say they are no diffrent than backwoods living, bubba teeth having, redneck, shootgun toteing, whites who never baths, and hangs blackpeople from a tree when they see them. but that would be really immature of me,, wouldnt it?? lazy stupid people come in all sizes, shapes, and colors.

anything else ?

[Fordboy]

I don't think Clinton had as much of the female vote as she, or everyone else, would assume. Sure, she was strong in that area... but she lost a lot of respect of women everywhere when she allowed her husband to have a public affair, lie about it, then half-ass admit to it, then try to brush it away like it was no big deal. The man was legally impeached for it, afterall.

I think a lot of women see that as letting her husband get away with something that most would not, simply because of who he is and how he could help her bid for future success.

If she let her husband off that light, which probably wasn't easy, what else would she be willing to compromise for her own political success? Probably some things that would be a lot more detrimental to the public good, but a lot easier for her to swallow (no pun intended).

that was something personal to her though, yes it was public about the affair. but im sure you dont know personally what went on behind closed doors. besides she made that as a personal choice, im sure she wouldnt run the country with a personal choice but with the people's choice like it should be. she is very political and does everything with a business sense.

[Gunslinger]

i agree

[Onespeed]

that was something personal to her though, yes it was public about the affair. but im sure you dont know personally what went on behind closed doors. besides she made that as a personal choice, im sure she wouldnt run the country with a personal choice but with the people's choice like it should be. she is very political and does everything with a business sense.

Well, looks like we'll never know... I doubt she will be relevent enough in 2012 to have much of a shot.

[capitalcrew]

Hillary Clinton is a joke. I almost wish she had won the nomination instead, I feel like McCain had a better chance against her.

I don't give a shit what color Obama is, he isn't fit for presidency.

McCain isn't exactly what I think we need, but its easier to get lemonade from a lemon than lemonade from the shit I took last week.

In other words, take what you can get.

[RedRacer99]

mccain's too old, halfway senile, and actually supports this war... you be my guess and vote to continue driving this economy into a grave

[capitalcrew]

He wants to be out of the middle east just like nearly everyone else does, he just knows it needs to be done properly.

[J_Mob]

i'm not racist, but i think blacks bitch 'n moan too much about their past. considering that whites were slaves too and the africans SOLD them to us, things aren't as bad as they were. things were segregated but that's not our fault... that was half a damned century ago... stfu and get over it. oh and obama will most likely get assassinated cuz some hick will rant 'n rave over what his "grand-daddy" taught him. i have my own opinions... that make me racist? so fuckin' be it. i try to get along with everyone but if people (EVERYONE) do not want to be stereotyped... quit fitting them!

X2-I did not ever own a slave in my life, and have gotten slung crap from both "sides" for not giving a f*** about skin tone.

I've gotten into confrontations with "whitey" slinging propaganda, as well as with "toby" doing the same. (Hell, I thought I was gonna get tossed in a river by some sacto skin prison ape for walking arond with a black friend in Cali-kept asking me if I was a sharp------stared at him kinda dumbfounded as I fumbled for my pocketknife, as I really didn't know waht the f' he was taling about at the time). And to sit around, listening to someone tell me how my poor ass has opressed them and has all the opportunities.....LMFAO. I have to work as there are no government programs willing to send me a check every month-I know, I tried...

Can't we all just get along? (Tired, I know). If everyone was to actually trust each other and work together, instead of always falling back on this us and them crap.....who knows what could be accomplished.

Damn, and don't even get me started on "hate crimes". Why is it worse for me to shoot someone of a different skin tone then to shoot anyone else? "Hate", well if I am going to beat, maim, or kill an individual-I am guessing I don't "love" them so......

[J_Mob]

The absolute last thing this country needs is an excuse for a race war. If Obama is elected, I gaurantee he will be wary of what he does on issues of race-unless he is trying to undermine the country. Anyone who would be stupid enough to try and take him out would be purposely trying to destroy this country, because as previously talked about-any ensuing riot/disrest/racially motivated bs would cripple our country, and likely leave us open to our enemies for infiltration and attack. They could probably use our own people against our own people at that point, due to the separations. babble babble babble.....

[J_Mob]

ok with all this talk of collin powel, what do you think would of happened if obama picked clinton as his vp. such as mccain chose a woman for his vp. i think that would of been a strong duo. having both of the democratic nominiees run together. obama would pick up her supporters and vice versa. now i would of voted for clinton just because yes she is a woman but she comes with loads of experience, for instance her husband being a past president. but not only that think about it when bill was in office times were looking up and we had peace treaties across the board. no wars, no high gas prices, most of americans were happy. so why not vote for the wife if the husband did so well. i just think in the end hilary got screwed

Hillary Clinton is in league with....no, is the devil. And not in a good way at all. Control this, control that. You don't need that, don't worry-we're from the government, we are here to help. I bet you she has a gun, but she don't want you poor people having them. And letting you know what congress is trying to pass as laws....well, all you need to know is that she knows what your best interests are so stop thinking for yourself. (Don't believe me....ask Bill ;))

Sooory. Now I am raving.

[J_Mob]

lazy stupid people come in all sizes, shapes, and colors.
?


+1

Unfortunately, a lot of them end up with careers as politicians......lol

[Gunslinger]

+1

Unfortunately, a lot of them end up with careers as politicians......lol


lol.... this is true.

[evilescort]

i dont vote and i cant but i hope Obama wins, bush f'ed everything up nothing else could go wrong... my cousin whos from jamaica showed me this youtube video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyJKJtN65Y8 the white house has been white too long,lol...

[SMusser]

i dont vote and i cant but i hope Obama wins, bush f'ed everything up nothing else could go wrong... my cousin whos from jamaica showed me this youtube video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyJKJtN65Y8 the white house has been white too long,lol...


This is part of the problem, Uniformed voters. I know you said you are not voting, but too many people out there share your thought process that are voting. A white Republican screwed up everything, so a black Democrat must be able to change it all, right? :shrug:

[J_Mob]

This is part of the problem, Uniformed voters. I know you said you are not voting, but too many people out there share your thought process that are voting. A white Republican screwed up everything, so a black Democrat must be able to change it all, right? :shrug:

Yeah, because Dems and Reps are not sitting around working in cahoots to make big money. The whole system needs reformed....the fact that our money is used for already rich democrat and republican candidates to run for office, and yet denied to other groups is rediculous. It should either be available in small amounts to anyone with a legitamate campaign or denied to all. I vote for denied to all, since I already pay enough taxes.

The advent of the electoral college was the demise of true democracy............:monkeybutt:

[zx2loon]

Republicans, Democrats....Blacks, Whites, Asian, Russian, all types of people are being mentioned here cept' one!!!

What about the Cherokee, The Sioux, The Blackfoot, houndreds of indian tribes wiped out by the white man. Long ago making them into slaves and useing them in war. Then because of the white man, forced to move north to colder land and harsh winters....why, cause the white man liked the warmer south, the mountains, the springs and definatly the farmablility of the land.

So who cares?? No one really. The blacks complain about the indians getting Casino's. What have casino's done for my people?? Nothing!! Most Casino's were headed by the "brightest" cheif in the tribe. One who was educated by the white man and taught to do as the whiteman says. Well, what good is that for my people?? Other races want to complain about things done to them in the past...well my people are still hurting today. Where's our Cherokee President?? Where is our representation in Congress?? The white man thinks giving us booze and casino's will shut us up.....your wrong Mr. White Man!! It won't keep us silent any longer!! Rise up my minions and shout at the devil!!! :flipa:








Wow...that's some nobel prize winning shit there^^^^^ :p

[capitalcrew]

i dont vote and i cant but i hope Obama wins, bush f'ed everything up nothing else could go wrong... my cousin whos from jamaica showed me this youtube video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyJKJtN65Y8 the white house has been white too long,lol...

Great thought process!

Not.

We aren't voting for GWB vs BHO, we're voting for McCain and Obama.

[J_Mob]

Hey....my great grandmother was Cherokee. I'm with ya, homeskillet. The white devil must pay for his crimes, his greed and the corruption of the land.

.....oh wait, I'm also German, Irish, English, Hebrew.....I'm gonna have to beat, maim, and shoot my self in any uprising since I have so many different ancestral ties. What do I do?????

(Edit-was talking to loon, but took to much time typing there....)

[zx2loon]

Hey....my great grandmother was Cherokee. I'm with ya, homeskillet. The white devil must pay for his crimes, his greed and the corruption of the land.

.....oh wait, I'm also German, Irish, English, Hebrew.....I'm gonna have to beat, maim, and shoot my self in any uprising since I have so many different ancestral ties. What do I do?????

(Edit-was talking to loon, but took to much time typing there....)

Talk about being intelligently pissed off with OCD while being able to have conversations with angels!!

:rofl:

[J_Mob]

Hey now.......lol

[zx2loon]

Hey now.......lol

Well......:beernana:

[J_Mob]

Yup...

[zx2loon]

Yup...


Glad somebody else see's my point.....:dance:

[J_Mob]

Lol....:beer:

[evilescort]

This is part of the problem, Uniformed voters. I know you said you are not voting, but too many people out there share your thought process that are voting. A white Republican screwed up everything, so a black Democrat must be able to change it all, right? :shrug:

im not voting cause im not a citizen of the usa.. marry me and i'll vote for who ever you want :)

[evilescort]

Great thought process!

Not.

We aren't voting for GWB vs BHO, we're voting for McCain and Obama.


i dont vote cause i cant, im not from the usa bro.. i dont care who you vote for or what you say im just along for the ride:poke:

[capitalcrew]

That's irrelevant. You aren't the only one who thinks like you, as previously mentioned.

[J_Mob]

im not voting cause im not a citizen of the usa.. marry me and i'll vote for who ever you want :)

OK but we have to go to cali I think....but it may get tossed out since I am already married. But if that's what it takes to get you to vote......:puke:

[evilescort]

That's irrelevant. You aren't the only one who thinks like you, as previously mentioned.

wtf dose that mean? i thought my english was bad... whats wrong with a black prez? i dont fallow politics just thought a black man or female president would be interesting..

[evilescort]

OK but we have to go to cali I think....but it may get tossed out since I am already married. But if that's what it takes to get you to vote......:puke:

i think we could get married in mass too,lol :goofy:

[J_Mob]

Lmao...

[evilescort]

not being a citizen sux, i went on a cruise and they almost dident let me off boat cause i lost my passport in my stateroom .. and i alwase get searched when i get on a plane.. :(

[J_Mob]

Dude I've gotten f'd with trying to fly. And even after I supplied all the iD to get my ticket....."You've been randomly selected for further screening". Made me strip to my t shirt and jeans in the middle of the floor. I wanted to start knocking heads.....douchebags. Sorry-trying to relate I guess.

Sux, you'd think with all the databases and computers everything would be easily verified......shows you how much technology is worth. I think it's just an excuse-people with badges get off on f'in with people who lack them I think. (In general...statistically speaking so to say)

[evilescort]

do you have a tan? its probly the dark skin...lol , they search me like they did you and go throught all my sh** i have in my bags... :pissed:

[J_Mob]

No-just tattoos. Yeah I was waiting for the rubber gloves to come out...thank god. I would have flipped out. They took my belt off (I had a belt with the skullnbones spaced every inch or so) and started trying to pry them off and peep under em. Then one of em asked me where I got the belt cuz he wanted one....felt like telling him he could have that one. I avoid flying anymore....

[evilescort]

hey if it was a female security guard with rubber gloves and lotion, i would be happy to take off what ever she asked... one time i got searched they took my disposable cameras..

[Fordboy]

Ralf Nader anyone???? lol jk

[Gunslinger]

im voteing for obama not caue he's black, but because he seem to, ( and has a history of) really giving a crap about others outside his own political agenda. the man really thinks he can change shit. maybe he is blind. or maybe even stupid. id rather have a honest idiot trying to change the world than a really smart crook in office. i'l take the lesser evil. john Macane does have some intresting points, and i absolutly respect the man,, but he's a bush clone. and this war sucks ass. it really needs to end. we need to spend money at home and not some asshole who if givin the chance, will try to shit all over us first chance they get.

[EmoRebellion]

im voteing for obama not caue he's black, but because he seem to, ( and has a history of) really giving a crap about others outside his own political agenda. the man really thinks he can change shit. maybe he is blind. or maybe even stupid. id rather have a honest idiot trying to change the world than a really smart crook in office. i'l take the lesser evil. john Macane does have some intresting points, and i absolutly respect the man,, but he's a bush clone. and this war sucks ass. it really needs to end. we need to spend money at home and not some asshole who if givin the chance, will try to shit all over us first chance they get.
Hes not a bush clone! Hes voted against bush almost 10% of the time! How can you argue with that? John McCain is the change that we need:biggun:












:puke:

[Onespeed]

Is that 10% or 100%? Just wanted to clarify...

[EmoRebellion]

Is that 10% or 100%? Just wanted to clarify...
10%. He voted AGAINST him roughly 10% of the time, with him 90% of the time.

[TheCrazyGuy]

id rather have a honest idiot trying to change the world than a really smart crook in office.

Funny, that's what people have been saying about the current guy, but you don't sound like a fan.

[EmoRebellion]

I dont think anyone has accused bush of being honest..

[Gunslinger]

I dont think anyone has accused bush of being honest..


hells no he aint. he;s done nothing but line his own pockets, and the pockets of the people that got him in office. bush knows nothing of the middle class,, its just a word to him. how he gonna give a crap about something he doesnt understand.

and yes maybe your right, if john macane is a clone he'd be with him 100 percent, but being he's just 90 percent. i guess that makes him bush like.. or rather ,, kinda bushy..lol

If john macane really wanted to change thisw place, he'd talk more about spending the american dollor on the americans, not outsourceing every damn thing, which if you do your homework, youd see that for your self.
america needs more jobs,
america needs to build on america.
Millions of friggin dollors spent a week overseas. none of that shit spent on america people (except the contracting services that bush and chaney own that runs the F.O.B's in iraq and afgan.)

oh yes,, i got tons of knowlege on the shit, and none of it hearsay baby.

[TheCrazyGuy]

hells no he aint. he;s done nothing but line his own pockets, and the pockets of the people that got him in office. bush knows nothing of the middle class,, its just a word to him. how he gonna give a crap about something he doesnt understand.

and yes maybe your right, if john macane is a clone he'd be with him 100 percent, but being he's just 90 percent. i guess that makes him bush like.. or rather ,, kinda bushy..lol

If john macane really wanted to change thisw place, he'd talk more about spending the american dollor on the americans, not outsourceing every damn thing, which if you do your homework, youd see that for your self.
america needs more jobs,
america needs to build on america.
Millions of friggin dollors spent a week overseas. none of that shit spent on america people (except the contracting services that bush and chaney own that runs the F.O.B's in iraq and afgan.)

oh yes,, i got tons of knowlege on the shit, and none of it hearsay baby.

What contracting service does bush own that lines his pockets again?

[J_Mob]

Gotta chime in on the middle class thing....Obama was getting cheered for saying he was gonna raise taxes on people who make 32000 a year or more. That, my friends, is the middle class. At least the middle of the middle class.....

I don't like that part, as I finally am making a decent wage and now I get to look forward to getting taxed more for working hard and getting into debt by going to school. Yeah...rock on.

[pinkshinyalan]

Gotta chime in on the middle class thing....Obama was getting cheered for saying he was gonna raise taxes on people who make 32000 a year or more. That, my friends, is the middle class. At least the middle of the middle class.....

I don't like that part, as I finally am making a decent wage and now I get to look forward to getting taxed more for working hard and getting into debt by going to school. Yeah...rock on.

Where and when did he say that?

Obama's tax plan involves lowering taxes on everyone except those making more than $250,000 per year. That's been his tax plan from the beginning; there's no debate about that. You either misheard him, or have been misinformed.

[capitalcrew]

If you're going to tear a man down and call him a crook you should a least be able to spell his name correctly.

[Onespeed]

If you're going to tear a man down and call him a crook you should a least be able to spell his name correctly.

Seriously, I couldn't concentrate on the point being made because of the atrocious spelling!

What contracting service does bush own that lines his pockets again?

I was wondering the same thing myself... having been to several of said FOB's and numerous other insallations in said locations. Never saw any CTR's or TCN's wearing shirts with GWB Enterprises or anything to that effect. Not real sure GWB actually "owns" anything, except maybe his ranch and his underwear.

[J_Mob]

Where and when did he say that?

Obama's tax plan involves lowering taxes on everyone except those making more than $250,000 per year. That's been his tax plan from the beginning; there's no debate about that. You either misheard him, or have been misinformed.

I seen it on the telervisson.......

Honestly I can't remember what news show....was flipping through them and stopped on him talking to a group. Yes, he said taxable income which is generally less then you make on paper-but that is still not anyone I would call "rich".....sorry I can't put up more info. I know I saw it, so I don't doubt my thoughts on it....but I wish I had the memory to inform others.

It really sucks that the masses are appeased when a "leader" throws them another similar social group and says here's the enemy. Notice how no one attacks the super rich, or the corporations? Sorry-I have NEVER heard a single candidate in any elections I have witnessed in my 30 years even go there. They'd be tossed out or shot I am guessing, since we all know who really runs shite round these parts..:pissed: They may play and hint at it, but no balls in the sack o'surprises....no no no.

[EmoRebellion]

I seen it on the telervisson.......

Honestly I can't remember what news show....was flipping through them and stopped on him talking to a group. Yes, he said taxable income which is generally less then you make on paper-but that is still not anyone I would call "rich".....sorry I can't put up more info. I know I saw it, so I don't doubt my thoughts on it....but I wish I had the memory to inform others.

It really sucks that the masses are appeased when a "leader" throws them another similar social group and says here's the enemy. Notice how no one attacks the super rich, or the corporations? Sorry-I have NEVER heard a single candidate in any elections I have witnessed in my 30 years even go there. They'd be tossed out or shot I am guessing, since we all know who really runs shite round these parts..:pissed: They may play and hint at it, but no balls in the sack o'surprises....no no no.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/images/2008/06/12/wsj_tax_chart.gif

[J_Mob]

? I'm not sure I understand that table. So it is based of current tax laws, using an interpretation of proposed tax changes by candidates? Oh well, like I said....I turned on the tv and heard what I heard. Maybe I misunderstood, but generally I have a good understanding of the english language....

Guess it doesn't really matter-every election, someone says they are going to lower taxes. Then maybe they'll lower them somehow. Then they'll go and make new "programs" that need more money so poof, a new tax somewhere (whether it's fuel, cigarrettes, ammunition, sales, income, etc.)

[SoCalZX2]

I believe the graph is showing that Obama is going to lower taxes more than McCain pretty much across the board (except for the wealthy).

But you're correct that he's also looking into National Health Care... so where do you think that funding will come from ;)

[EmoRebellion]

Yes the graph is showing that McCain wants to give SMALL breaks to low income families, and LARGE breaks to high income. Obama wants to give much more back to people making less than $66,000, and raise taxes on people making above $111,111 (in the short term)

[J_Mob]

Yeah I got the bars, just not how they came up with the figures. I know how they made the chart.....with a computer har har har...

[SoCalZX2]

Yes the graph is showing that McCain wants to give SMALL breaks to low income families, and LARGE breaks to high income. Obama wants to give much more back to people making less than $66,000, and raise taxes on people making above $111,111 (in the short term)

And then when they get national health care off the ground those tax breaks will disappear.

BTW, why is it fair to tax those who have earned their higher income more? They have no moral obligation to carry this countries taxes, yet they do. I don't know if you recall, but the top 1% of income earners pay over 33% of the ENTIRE countries taxes for the year.

So, why is it fair to demand they pay more than the rest of us in taxes? Why not go to a flat tax and then force personal responsibility on people? Maybe then, people will stop begging for handouts and social programs. Maybe then they'll actually learn to make the dollar work for them, and not bitch about those "evil" rich people that have everything handed to them.

It'll be interesting to be one of those "evil" rich people later in life. I'd love to have someone who hasn't worked hard at getting anywhere bitch about it being handed to me. You wanna know whats funny... most of those "evil" rich people, are small business owners, who've built their company from scratch with nothing but blood sweat and tears. Yet they have to pay more than people who aren't willing to work hard...

Yeah, that makes sense.

[JonsZX2SR]

Look at the other side of the argument, why is it unfair to tax higher earners proportionally more, as long as each person winds up with somewhat more than those who earn less.

So if you tax the first $50K at 10% someone making $50K winds up with $45K.

If you tax the $50-100K increment at 30%, someone making $60K winds up with $52K while someone making $100K winds up with $80K

If you tax everything over $100K at 50%, someone making $150K still winds up with $105K, while someone making $500K keeps $280K.

The taxation rate is higher, but no one is saying take all the income over a certain level so people wind up equal no matter what they earn.

$ 50K keeps $ 45K (10.0% effective rate)
$ 60K keeps $ 52K (13.3% effective rate)
$100K keeps $ 80K (20.0% effective rate)
$120K keeps $ 90K (25.0% effective rate)
$130K keeps $ 95K (26.9% effective rate)
$150K keeps $105K (30.0% effective rate)
$200K keeps $130K (35.0% effective rate)
$500K keeps $280K (44.0% effective rate)
$990K keeps $525K (47.0% effective rate)

Even with an exaggerated 50% rate above $100K take home incomes climb. With a more progressive graduated rate higher wage earners keep more.

As long as those who make more keep more where is it written that taxes have to be strictly linear and proportional ?

Another way to look at this is to figure people need basic commodities to live no matter what they earn. If you exempt that amount (times dependents) and take a flat rate you still wind up with a graduated scale.

For example if you have a 1 wage earner, 2 person family and exempt $20K per person then tax everything else at a 50% rate you get:

$ 50K keeps $ 45K (10.0% effective rate)
$ 60K keeps $ 50K (16.7% effective rate)
$100K keeps $ 70K (30.0% effective rate)
$120K keeps $ 80K (33.3% effective rate)
$130K keeps $ 85K (34.6% effective rate)
$150K keeps $ 95K (36.7% effective rate)
$200K keeps $120K (40.0% effective rate)
$500K keeps $270K (46.0% effective rate)
$990K keeps $515K (48.0% effective rate)

[SoCalZX2]

Look at the other side of the argument, why is it unfair to tax higher earners proportionally more, as long as each person winds up with somewhat more than those who earn less.

The taxation rate is higher, but no one is saying take all the income over a certain level so people wind up equal no matter what they earn.


Why is it unfair? Because those that have worked harder to earn a higher income are being penalized (for lack of a better word) because they've made a better life for themselves. Why is it fair to say that they have to pay more? People who have higher incomes shouldn't be forced to take care of those who do not have the higher incomes (by way of taxation).

No one ever implied that taxes are setup to take all of someones money when it reaches a certain point. I think that even the most liberal tax person would find that to be a stupid idea. So I'm not sure why you put that out there Jon.

All I'm saying, is that even though a graduated tax system allows those higher income earners to keep more then the lower income counterparts, it's unfair to take more of their money just because they make more. It just doesn't seem right to force people to pay other peoples way. I guess thats the republican in me though.

[J_Mob]

Agree with SoCal there...

I think we need to seriously thin out the government programs and cut back taxes on the federal level. A lot of stuff could be taken over by the state, if it is a necessary program--and the rest could get tossed. I agree that it should not be the burden of the wealthier (or the working, as it is in most cases) to float the burden of government programs. On the same level, it is not the responsability of people w/o kids to pay for my kids school, not the responsability of the working to pay for the lazy, etc. A lot of the current government needs completely reworked...........

[JonsZX2SR]

...the assumption is that all the high earners made it on their own without benefit of a successful society and economy. If they were born in a poor part of africa or south of the border in a 3rd world nation, most wouldn't get wealthy, despite their capabilities.

My argument is one reason super high wage earners made it is by benefitting from the system, so they should pay proportonally more for the top end of their earnings to support the system, but not so much so that they still come out ahead.

There are other problems with our system of taxation, very wealthy (and some on so wealthy) pay ony 15% on long term capital gains, they have opportunity to shield large portions of income, so despite graduated taxes they often pay proportionally less.

You can argue that graduated taxation is unfair, but what is the basis for that argument ?? Your opinion that anything greater than proportional taxation is unfair has no more basis than mine that income taxes are graduated.

Since we live in a democratic republic, majority rule combined with political manipulation will have to serve as an alternative for arguing what is fair.

...as I pointed out you could have a flat tax rate, but exempt the first $xxK for essentials. You end up with a graduated system where the nominal tax rate would be 0% up to the cutoff, then increase gradually as it approached the nominal flat rate for very high incomes. If you eliminated shelters and deferred compensation for all wage earners this would probably be the most fair (but it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.)

[olekeg]

i remember an episode of Bull Sh*t with Penn & Teller (damn i miss that show) where they looked at stats. In the episode they took the exact same facts and had two sides make charts using the same info, and both sides made it look like their idea worked the best. Hmmm now how can both sides claim victory? Because they always massage the facts and figures to best suit their agenda

[SoCalZX2]

Jon is usually pretty fair an balanced about his approach. So I'm not going to argue to much that he's manipulating numbers.

Fact is there are people to which some stuff is handed. I can't argue that. But Jon, the book "The millionaire next door" from the mid 90's (which is based on facts and research) states that 80% of Americas millionaires at the time are "first generation rich". So you can't say that proportionately there are more that have been handed their earnings vs those that have earned it.

I certainly haven't been handed anything, and plan on being able to retired @ 55ish with 3-5 Million or more in a nestegg. Does that mean that I should have to pay more to support people who aren't doing much to better themselves? Thats my argument. Most of Americas Affluent (save for maybe SOME of the super affluent) have worked and slaved to make their money. So what makes it more fair that they should be footing the bill of those who aren't willing to work as hard as you or I? There isn't a good argument for that Jon.

[pinkshinyalan]

I'd dispute that statistic, that 80% of millionaires are still new blood today. That book was from the mid-90s, as you say, and there were tons of new millionaires then because of the internet bubble. But that's neither here nor there.

You say it's unfair to tax rich people more, because they've worked harder to make their wealth -- but is it fair to tax poor people the same as rich?

Let's propose a flat tax of, say, 20%. Someone making $2 million a year nets $1.6 million after taxes. Someone making $200K a year nets $160K after taxes. Someone making $20K/year nets $16K after taxes.

As you can see, a flat tax hurts the poor disproportionately more. $4K per year to someone making only $20K is a serious burden. Imagine living on that. A $500 apartment is $6000 per year (and where can you find a $500 apartment?). Imagine, then, having a kid or two.

You can argue that these people should be working harder, finding better work, getting educated. But can they afford to invest in an education? Can they afford the time off from work? Can they afford a pay cut?
Even with the drive, work ethic, and desire for a better life and more money, that kind of tax rate is very restrictive to the lower class.

I think it's unfair to tax the poor the same percentage as the rich, because the impact on the poor's financial standing is so much greater.

The so-called "fair tax," a.k.a. the national sales tax, interests me quite a bit.

[SoCalZX2]

Taxes suck in general, but are a necessary evil. I just don't think it's right to ask someone to do more than their fair share because they make more.

I don't disagree there is a large struggle financially for today's lower middle and lower class population. I think I would be ok with (even though it puts a burden on those that make more) pretty much eliminating taxes for those that are @ or below the poverty level to give them the opportunity to do better.

People need breaks in life to succeed. There is no doubt in my mind about that. But I just don't think that the affluent should have to cover the bulk of the tax burden on the country (IMHO).

It'd be interesting to see a new study done to see how the affluent are spread out after the .com bust.

[pinkshinyalan]

Fair enough.

But if we're gonna do that, we need to significantly raise the poverty level.

Right now it's $14,000 for a family of two, $17,600 for a family of three. That's disturbingly low.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/08Poverty.shtml

[SoCalZX2]

Well how high do you wish to raise it? If the median nationwide income is just over 50k, should it be 25k for a fam of 3? I mean, there are already a lot of Gov't assistance programs that don't require you to be @ or below the poverty level AFAIK anyways.

[pinkshinyalan]

I honestly don't know.

I don't know how much assistance one could get, exactly, and I don't know how many people the country could afford to leave untaxed and still have the tax rate reasonable for everyone else. That's something for the number crunchers to determine precisely. $25K for a family of 3 sounds reasonable enough to me, but I don't know what it's like to try and raise a kid (or two) on that income.

[JonsZX2SR]

Jon is usually pretty fair an balanced about his approach. So I'm not going to argue to much that he's manipulating numbers.

Fact is there are people to which some stuff is handed. I can't argue that. But Jon, the book "The millionaire next door" from the mid 90's (which is based on facts and research) states that 80% of Americas millionaires at the time are "first generation rich". So you can't say that proportionately there are more that have been handed their earnings vs those that have earned it.

I certainly haven't been handed anything, and plan on being able to retired @ 55ish with 3-5 Million or more in a nestegg. Does that mean that I should have to pay more to support people who aren't doing much to better themselves? Thats my argument. Most of Americas Affluent (save for maybe SOME of the super affluent) have worked and slaved to make their money. So what makes it more fair that they should be footing the bill of those who aren't willing to work as hard as you or I? There isn't a good argument for that Jon.

You could turn the argument around and say that a graduated tax system leaves more money in the hands of hard working lower and middle income earners and allows them to climb the economic ladder faster. Graduated taxes aren'e necessarily a handout to the lazy, depending on how they are structured, they can benefit hard workers.

But you have to balance the lower rate of taxation on the lower earners with a higher rate at the top of the curve. In your case, you would probably be able to build wealth faster.

Another probelm with the current system is the 15% tax rate on long term capital gains. This allows those who derive most of their income from investments rather than from jobs or companies they own to pay a very low tax rate. At the very least what could be done is to limit the amount of income per year taxed at the lower rate, then tax the rest as normal income. If the US went to a flat rate of taxation, the 15% capital gains rate should probably be eliminated.

For years I have advocated replacing an income tax with a wealth tax. Exempt one house up to a limit (say $1million) one car per driver, assets in a retirement account up to a certain limit. Count only a percentage of ownership in a working (as opposed to investment) business, or tax the business separately.

Then apply a tax rate, say 22% on all wealth that was not exempted, rather than income. people with 7 homes would pay taxes on 6, pay taxes on boats, planes, etc.

The benefit on those who are working to get ahead is if they own very little they would pay very little taxes. This would help them climb the economic ladder faster. As they acquired assets their taxes would rise.

So the guy who has $500 in assts pays $110 but the guy who has $100million pays $22million. If the wealthy guy wants to stay wealthy he needs to work hard.

Since we want people to work hard to become wealthy, shouldn't we expect the wealthy to work harder to stay where thay are. If set up right, forces would tend to drive people toward being upper middle class, rather than either being very poor or very wealthy.

[SoCalZX2]

The problem with that, is it forced people to work hard their entire lives Jon. At some point people need to be able to retire. A wealth tax like that would be insane on people that have lived frugally their entire lives to build a good nestegg and retire. There is no way to stay afloat with a tax like that. you'd have people who are living off their nestegg working 60hrs a week still in their 70's because they have to, because they're wealth is disappearing (not from spending, but from taxation).

Or is something off in my math? That seems more unfair then the current tax system IMO.

[J_Mob]

$25K for a family of 3 sounds reasonable enough to me, but I don't know what it's like to try and raise a kid (or two) on that income.

Hard. I make more then that now, thankfully...but I was raised on tuff times and have plenty of friends and family in similar siuations. It can be done, and a lot of times there is a lot of assistance and sacrifice involved...but honestly, it's no ones fault but their own generally. I empathize, not sympathize.....
Stop smoking crack, get a job, stop buying stuff on credit, start using birth control...take responsability for your self and grow the f' up. SOmtehing along that line I think...(tangent)

[RedRacer99]

classic situation: woman comes into the liquor store, has a couple bottles of rum and a case of beer. flashes her credit card, i say 'sorry, we only accept cash'. she throws a bitchfit and i say we have an atm for her convenience (it's only $1.50, very very cheap compared to others around here). she says she's poor w/ no money in the bank. what does that tell you?

this is why i do NOT have a credit card. flashing a credit card says to me "i'm paying with money i don't have". you can be faithful all you want on your payments, but if you can't pay with cash or debit on the spot, then you shouldn't be buying that product. emergencies, fine, but credit card for beer or shopping? gtfo

[JonsZX2SR]

SoCal re-read my proposal about the wealth tax. Retirement funds up to some reasonable level would not be taxed. That doesn't mean, however, that someon who has $100million is going to avoid paying taxes on the entire account.

What I'm looking for is a system that allows people to build wealth faster while earning less early in their lives. The current system makes it harder to do that unless you have an opportunity to defer significant income in a 401-K or similar plan. However, the benefits don't really kick in until someone is amking close to $100K and only if they can afford to max out contributions.

having lower taxes on the very wealthy would be counter productive. The gov't needs to collect revenues one way or another. If you lower taxes on the very wealthy then you need to decrease spending or raise taxes on the middle and uppr middle class who are trying to build wealth. If you lower taxes, it would make more sense to help those buildiong wealth before those who already have wealth.